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Kingdom of Atenveldt Home Page

Kingdom of Atenveldt
Heraldic Submissions Page

(administered by the Brickbat Herald)


Unto Their Royal Majesties Morgan and Livia; Master Seamus McDaid, Aten Principal Herald; the Heralds in the Atenveldt College of Heralds; and to All Whom These Presents Come,

Greetings from Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy, Parhelium Herald!

This is the September 2007 Atenveldt Letter of Presentation. It precedes the external Letter of Intent that will contain the following submissions that are presented here, asking questions of submitters and local heralds who have worked with them; if these questions are not addressed, the submission may be returned by the Atenveldt College of Heralds. I accept online commentary, in addition to questions pertaining to heraldry and consultation.

Submissions Website: You can send electronic commentary on the most recent internal LoIs through the site, in addition to any questions you might have. Current submission forms (the ONLY forms that can be used) can be found on the site. Please let your local populace know about the site, too:

The following submissions appear in the September 2007 Atenveldt Letter of Intent:

Commentary is provided by Aryanhwy merch Catmael [AmC], Helena de Agentoune [HdA], Katherine Throckmorton [KT], Maridonna Benevenuti [MB] and Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy [MMM].

Aasni Ragnhildsdottir (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Per chevron purpure and barry wavy Or and azure, two pots and a whelk shell argent.

Support for this spelling of the byname and for matronymics in Swedish is needed before this can be registered. [AmC]

Given that Norse matronymics are currently considered too rare and anomolous to be registerable, I'm not optimistic about this one, unless it can be shown that later Swedish names used matronymics. [KT]

The word “shell” may be dropped from the blazon. [HdA] This is erring on the side of caution. If “shell” weren’t included in the blazon, it would be just as likely to show the shell and its resident mollusc. [MMM]

Amirah al-Zahra (Atenveldt): NEW DEVICE: Azure, on a fess argent between a crescent and a pair of scimitars crossed in saltire and with edges to base Or, a lotus flower in profile azure.

The name appears in the March 2007 Atenveldt Letter of Intent.

I believe scimitars have their edge to base by default (when not palewise), so this can be dropped from the blazon. [AmC] The single-edged blade can be such a pain in blazoning accurately (“is it blade up? blade down?”) that I think adding a few words to the blazon makes it very clear (and gains many good thoughts from scribes and heraldic artists, too!). [MMM]

I like this one! I think the scimitars would fit the space better if they were curved-side up instead of curved-side down, but no matter. [HdA]

Argyll MacPherson (Tir Ysgithr): NEW BADGE: Per saltire sable and azure, in pale two towers argent and in fess two wolves courant Or.

Ascelina de Ross MacNeil (Twin Moons): NEW NAME AND DEVICE: Argent, four bear paw prints in cross sable.

If the submitter wants a entirely Scots name, she may wish to consider using one of the Scots female names that was suggested in the correspondence that I sent to the consulting herald. Of course, none of those are as close to her desired name as Ascelina, so she may have to live with a name that mixes Scots and English, which is something that occured during the SCA period. As it stands, this name isn't a double surname, rather it is a surname based on a patronymic combined with a locative byname. Barring documentation for the submitted order, this will need to be changed to "MacNeil de Ross". Black has McNeill dated to 1327, it might be better to use that date to avoid needlessly introducing a temporal disparity. I'd also suggest restoring the second "l" to "MacNeil" as all of the spellings in Black use two "l"s. [KT] The documentation for Leannán MacNeil at says that Black p. 550 has <McNeil> dated to 1329. [AmC] I dug around here, and the citation seems to be McNeill, dating to 1329, also with a double -l-. [MMM]

The name is not formed correctly: The locative should follow the family name, not precede it: "Listed on the LoI as Anastasia MacEwan da Ravenna, this name was submitted as Anastasia de Ravenna MacEwan. The order of the bynames was changed at Kingdom to follow period examples of names having a surname first, followed by a locative byname...However, without this change, the name is not registerable. There is no evidence that patronymic bynames such as MacEwan appeared after locative bynames such as da Ravenna in either Scots or Italian. Therefore, this name must be returned." [Anastasia de Ravenna MacEwan, 08/2003 LoAR, R-Caid] This needs to be changed to <Ascelina MacNeil de Ross>. [AmC]

Clear of Cynthia Waerfaest (reg. 02/1988 via the West), "Argent, in bend five cat's paw prints bendwise sable," with one CD for the orientation of the prints and another for their arrangement (since four could be in bend and five could be in cross). That's the closest I found. The pawprints can certainly be blazoned as palewise if the submitter wishes, even though it would be redundant, since that is the default for pawprints. [AmC, HdA]

I wasn’t sure of the default for pawprints so I included the “palewise” in the submitted blazon just for clarity. The client is not too particular about the wording of the blazon, however, but she IS particular that the design include BEAR pawprints. [HdA] As pawprints are SCA-compatible charges, the CoA tends to merely blazon them as generic pawprints. I have no problem including “bear” in the blazon, again as a means of reproducing the charges accurately, and since bear prints are noticeably different from canine or feline prints. [MMM]

Elias Loredan (Atenveldt): BADGE RESUBMISSION from Kingdom, July 2007

(Fieldless) A horse rampant argent charged with a compass rose sable within and conjoined to a bordure embattled argent.

The original submission, (Fieldless) A horse rampant within a bordure embattled argent., conflicted with Malise the Archer, Per bend sinister azure and sable, a horse rampant within a bordure embattled argent. There is now 1 CD for field difference and 1 CD for the addition of the tertiary compass rose.

Fabio Ventura (Atenveldt): NEW DEVICE CHANGE: Quarterly sable and azure, a skull argent.

This probably requires a visual check of Achbar ibn Ali (reg. 07/1991 via Atlantia), "(Fieldless) A skull argent, within the dexter eye socket a rose gules." There's a CD for the field, but the question is whether the rose is large enough to be a tertiary or if it's essentially a maintained charge. It's presumably clear of Valentine Christian Warner (reg. 09/1998 via the Middle), "Purpure, a skull argent wearing a fool's cap per pale ermine and Or," with a CD for the field and one for removing the cap. Ah, yes, definitely: Here's the mini emblazon for Valentine's badge:

That's definitely a co-primary hat. [AmC]

Not sure why…I see the rose as a tertiary not as a maintained charge. Doesn’t hurt to have the permission to conflict that Katherine obtained, however. [HdA] Other than not being placed squarely on the skull, I think this is a good argument for treating the rose as a tertiary; if that’s the case, then this would be clear of Achbar’s armory, one for field differences, the second for addition of a tertiary charge. [MMM]

I have contacted Achbar ibn Ali, and he has said that he will allow permission to conflict with his badge. [KT] Many thanks to you and to Achbar! [MMM]

Galen McKintoch (Tir Ysgithr): DEVICE RESUBMISSION from Kingdom, July 2007: Sable, a bend abased Or charged with a bendlet vert, in sinister chief a wing terminating in a hand maintaining a sword bendwise argent.

The original submission, Sable, a bend abased vert fimbriated Or, in sinister chief a sword bendwise maintained by a wing terminating in a hand argent., was returned because only central charges can be fimbriated; enhanced or abased ones cannot. We have slightly redesigned this so that the ordinary is a bend Or, charged with a bendlet vert, a tertiary charge.

Kazimir Konstantinov (Twin Moons): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Azure, two eagle's heads couped respectant and a goblet Or.

Nice name! [AmC]

The arms are clear of Adelaide Walcheman (reg. 12/1986 via Ansteorra), "Azure, a peacock's head couped Or." While there isn't X.2 difference between an eagle's head and a peacock's head, there is significant difference, so there's one CD for the type of primary and another for the number. That was the closest I found. [AmC]

Consider Laurence of Kennedy: Azure, three swan’s heads argent. This one’s a toughy. Swans and eagles aren’t that different when you only get to consider the head. There’s one CD for change of tincture of charges. I think there’s a second by changing the type of 1/3 charges plus orientation of 1/3 charges = 2/3 changes to group à 2nd CD. I think it’s clear of this one. [HdA] I’d argue that there is sufficient difference between a swan’s head and an eagle’s head: a proper swan’s head include all or most of the next, so that that resulting charge has a rather snake-y appearance. [MMM]

Livia Domina Africianius (Atenveldt): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Gules, three scorpions gules.

The fact that <Domina> means 'lady' isn't in and of itself a reason for return (or for dropping the element). If it is actually documentable as a personal name element, then per RfS VI.1, it can be used "provided there is no suggestion of territorial claim or explicit assertion of rank." [AmC] Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to find it as a personal name element. [MMM]

Although this may be a bit late, I have found a Greek byname that means "the Numidian", it is "Nomadikos". I think that for a woman it would need to be feminized as "Nomadikas", but I don't have enough Greek to be clear on this point. Although Bardas Xiphias's article “Common Names of the Aristocracy in the Roman Empire During the 6th and 7th Centuries,” doesn't have anything like "Livia" he does show "Domentzia, Dominica, Domnica and Domnola" as feminine names. If it would be acceptable to the submitter, it looks like Dom...a Nomadikas might be a workable late Roman/Byzantine name. [KT]

Upon further consultation with the lady, Katherine has informed me that the client wishes a later Roman name and has chosen Aurelia Nomadikas. Aurelia is a feminine given name found in “Common Names of the Aristocracy in the Roman Empire During the 6th and 7th Centuries,” Bardas Xiphias ( ). Nomadikos is as ethnic adjective for Numidian/like Nomads used by various classical authors including Lucretius (Liddell & Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, 1940, s.v. nomadikos, online at the Perseus Project at ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry% 3D%2370938 ). We believe that the feminine form is indeed Nomadikas. Information on the byname is cheerfully lifted from and attributed to the 23 May 2007 An Tir Letter of Intent, 1. Bébinn ingen Áeda - Name Resubmission: Tamiras Nomadikos. [MMM]

Spiffy arms! [AmC] I LOVE these arms!!!!!!!! [HdA]

Pelagius Marius Calvus (Atenveldt): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Per chevron inverted gules and azure, a Latin cross formy argent.

The chevron should extend more deeply into the field. This is pretty shallow. The usual chevron inverted extends about ¾ of the way through the field and leaves almost no room in which to place a charge above the point. This leaves room for a charge at the point and then some. (See the submission for Aasni Ragnhildsdottir above in this LOP for a really good example using a regular “per chevron” division.) [HdA] I have redrawn the line of division to better show it. [MMM]

Sara Rebbeca Chadbourne (Atenveldt): NEW NAME

No documentation was received for this submission (boooo!). The client desires a 15th C. English name. Sara (this spelling) is dated 1311, 1330, 1379 in “Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English Surnames: Sara,” Talan Gwynek

( ); the “latest” spelling is Sarah, dated to 1405. Sarra is found in 1426, in “ English Names from Pre-1600 Brass Inscriptions,” Julian Goodwyn ( ). Withycombe notes that Rebecca / Rebekah is a Hebrew name that doesn’t come into English usage until after the Reformation (3rd edition, p. 251, s.n. Rebecca). The only citation I find for its use in England is spelled as Rebecca and used among the Jews of Medieval England, c. 1070-1290, in “Jewish Naming Convention in Angevin England,” Eleazar ha-Levi ( ). The spelling Chadbourne is dated to 1660 (ten years beyond our “grey area”) in Reaney and Wilson (s.n. Chadburn). However, a 15th C. form found in that source is Chatburn, 1449. She desires a feminine name and is most interested in the spelling of the name; she would like it authentic for the language/culture and time period, as noted above.

I believe that Sar(r)a Chatburn comes closest for a desired 15th C. name.

I agree that for an authentic 15th C name, the second given name should be dropped. However, we can get closer to the submitted spelling of the byname: Watts s.n. Chatburn has <Chadburn> 1416. <Sara Chadburn> is a fine 15th C English name. [AmC]

Considering that the Jews were expelled from England in 1290 and the English Reformation didn't start until the 1530's, I don't think that this can be made into a 15th century English name. If she actually wants the a 15th century English name, I'd suggest dropping "Rebecca" and using a documentable spelling of the byname. If the submitter really just wants the name as submitted, with a documentable spelling of the byname this would be a reasonably plausible 16th century English name. [KT]

S.n. Chatburn, 'Ceatta's stream', <Chadburn>, 1416. OE personal name Ceatta + burna. 'Cambridge Dictionary of English place-names: based on collections of the English Place-Name Society'. Victor Watts, ed., CUP, 2004, ISBN 0521362091. [MB]

Even though the names are later than what she wants I thought I'd mention them anyway. I have found the following given names in Bardsley, Charles W. A 'Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames', Genealogical Publishing Company, 1996, ISBN 0806300221.

S.n. Baptist. 1551 <Sara, d. of John Babtysse>, p. 77. and S.n. Bosworth, 1570, <Rebecka Bosworthe>, p. 120 [MB]

After consultation with the client, she wishes to submit Sara Rebecka Chadburn. Thank you for all of the input; it gave her a number of options to consider. [MMM]

The following are returned by the Atenveldt College of Heralds for further work, August 2007:

Bubba Baillie Love (Atenveldt): NEW NAME

Unfortunately, I can't help much here. First, unmarked patronyms were not used in Old English, so if <Love> is being considered as an unmarked patronym, then it has to be a Middle English byname; this would give <Bubba Love> alone one weirdness for the temporal disparity and one for the lingual disparity. A wholly OE form would be <Bubba Lufan sunu>, using the OE root <Lufa>. Unfortunately, R&W s.n. Bubba don't give any later examples of this as a personal name; they only have byname citations, which may be literal, but which cannot be assumed to be. Searching Sean Miller's website brings up a hit for <Bubba> in 1002 x 1004 (in S 1536), but that citation is actually for a place name, not a personal name.

<Baillie> and its variants from from OFr <bailli>, a later form of Ofr <baillis, baillif>; R&W s.n. Bailey have <le baylly> 1230, <Baly> 1274, <le Baly> 1327, <Bailie> 1327. If he had a Middle English given name,

then <X Love le baylly> would be registerable. But I don't see anyway for getting all three elements in these spellings. [AmC]

As submitted, no part of the name is Irish, and given the dates I don't think that it would be possible to get all of the elements into the 13th century. Black also dates Bailli (no "e") to 1311, and says that it is unlikely to have been used much before then. I'd suggest either dropping Bailli and marking the patronymic, barring evidence that Bubba continued to be used at a time when unmarked patronymics were used. Alternatively, "Bailli" and "Love" would be registerable in combination as a double surname, but that would require choosing an entirely different given name, this option would result in a plausible 13th century name. None of these options would result in a Irish name. I'd suggest contacting the submitter to find out what he really wants, or returning the name for further work. [KT]

RETURNED for incorrect name construction.

The following Atenveldt submissions were registered by the S.C.A. College of Arms, May 2007:

Alysandir Velzian. Name.

Effric Neyn Ken3ocht Mcherrald makes a comment about the spelling/pronunciation of this locative that might be of interest to the submitter:

‘Note that the <z> in <Velzian> is an editorial convention used to represent the letter yogh <3>. In the original manuscript, the name would have appeared as <Vel3ian> (Da'uded: <Vel{gh}ian>; non-Da'ud ASCII: <Vel3ian>). That this is the case is confirmed by other spellings given by Black that illustrate that the pronunciation involved a "y" (or fricative "gh") sound, not a "z" sound: <Awelgeing>, <Wailyom>, and <Vilyean>.’

Atenveldt, Kingdom of. Reblazon of badge for the Master of the King's Musick. Per pale azure and argent, in canton a sun in his splendour Or, in sinister a bass cornetto sable.

Registered in January 1973 with the blazon Per pale azure and argent, in canton a sun in his splendour and in the fly a Serpent (bass cornetto) azure, the tincture of the sun was omitted. We have corrected the omission and reblazoned this in accordance with standard SCA heraldic practice.

This is currently listed in the O&A as a flag, and continues to be so listed.

Aubree Duquesne de Bellemare. Name and device. Argent, on a pile throughout issuant from sinister azure a fleur-de-lys Or.

Submitted as Aubrée Duquesne de Bellemare, the only documentation for the accent in Aubrée was a citation from a genealogy website. An examination of the website revealed that it is unlikely that the names were preserved in their original forms. Without a dated citation for the spelling Aubrée, it is not registerable. The submitter has provided sufficient documentation to support Aubree; we have changed the given name to this form in order to register it. The submitter requested an authentic 13th C French name. However, we have found no form of Duquesne before the mid 15th C and none of Bellemare before the 16th. Both bynames are found in Cateline de la Mor, "Sixteenth Century Norman Names" ( If Aubree were documented to the 16th C, this would be an authentic 16th C French name, but we doubt it is authentic for the 13th C.

Cyneburga Thorisdohter. Name reconsideration from Cyneburg Thorisdohter.

Her old name, Cyneburg Thorisdohter, is released.

Elizabeth Æthelwulfes dohtor. Device. Argent, in pale three hearts gules, each charged with a mullet of four points Or.

Justin Louis de Courtenay. Name and device. Azure, in pale an owl displayed argent perched atop two rapiers inverted in saltire Or, a chief dovetailed argent.

The use of a bird displayed, other than an eagle, is a step from period practice.

Katerina Blakelock. Name and device. Per pale sable and vert, three chevronels braced and on a chief indented argent a triquetra vert between two pawprints sable.

The use of pawprints is a step from period practice.

Kemreth Danil. Reblazon of device. Vert, two pithons erect respectant, tails nowed in a Wake knot argent.

Registered in October 1976 with the blazon Vert, two winged serpents erect counter-respectant, their tails nowed in a Wake knot, argent, a winged serpent has feathered wings. These monsters have bat-wings, which is the standard for pithons.

Linnet Fayrchyld. Name and device. Vert, three church bells Or.

Linnet is the submitter's legal given name. Nice device.

Roland le Rouge. Name and device. Quarterly gules ermined Or and sable, in bend sinister two phoenixes facing sinister Or rising from flames proper.

Taisha Markov. Device. Per fess indented azure semy of escarbuncles and argent, in base a Russian Orthodox cross gules.

In registering Vanya Popovitch's device in March 1984, Laurel ruled that the lowermost cross bar on a Russian Orthodox cross should be bendwise. In registering Monenka Romanyak's device in July 1985, Laurel ruled that it should be bendwise sinister. At this point we are declaring that the orientation of the lowermost cross bar is an unblazoned detail worth no difference. In other words, it doesn't matter if it is bendwise or bendwise sinister.

Tav-Alandil. Reblazon of device. Vert, a bend sinister argent between a hawk close and a lightning flash bendwise sinister Or.

The submission history of this device is difficult to determine. It is currently listed in the Armorial as registered January 1973 with the blazon Vert, a bend sinister argent between a hawk close and a lightning bolt, both Or; however this does not appear in the January 1973 LoAR. There is a letter sent by Wilhelm von Schlüssel, Laurel, in September 1980 indicating this blazon and the January 1973 registration. This appears to be the same armory that appeared in the July 1972 LoAR with the blazon Vert, bend sinister between a hawk close and a lightening-flash bendwise sinister, singly fracted, both Or. The charge is a lightning flash, not a lightning bolt, though the emblazon in his file does not show the fracting mention in the July 1972 LoAR. This device has been reblazoned to correct the charge and to specify its orientation. A lightning flash, like a lightning bolt, does not have a default orientation.

Vallaulfr Rurikson and Cécile de Brétigny. Joint badge. Per pale indented azure and argent, a wolf argent and a unicorn gules combatant, both gorged and chained Or.

Zekel Zofia. Device. Per fess rayonny Or and gules, a fire arrow fesswise reversed sable enflamed gules and a castle argent.

The following submissions were returned by the College of Arms for further work, May 2007:

Medb inghean Phadraig. Name.

This name was withdrawn by the submitter.


Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy

c/o Linda Miku

2527 East 3rd Street

Tucson AZ 85716

























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