Kingdom of Atenveldt
30 September 2004, A.S. XXXIX
Unto Their Royal Majesties Cosmo Craven and Ismenia; Lord Seamus McDaid, Aten Principal Herald; the Heralds in the Atenveldt College of Heralds; and to All Whom These Presents Come,
Greetings of the New Year from Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy, Brickbat Herald!
This is the September 2004 internal Atenveldt Letter of Intent. It precedes the external LoI that will contain the following submissions, asking questions of submitters and local heralds who have worked with them; if these questions are not addressed, the submission may be returned by the Atenveldt College of Heralds. I accept online commentary, in addition to questions pertaining to heraldry: firstname.lastname@example.org. Please have comments or questions to me, on any armorial matter, by 15 October 2004.
Submissions Website: You can send electronic commentary on the most recent internal LoIs through the site, in addition to any questions you might have. Current submission forms (the ONLY forms that can be used) can be found on the site. Please let your local populace know about the site, too: atensubmissions.nexiliscom.com.
Heraldry Hut: The next Heraldry Hut is scheduled for Friday, 15 October, beginning at 7:30 PM. If you are interested in attending, please contact me for more information.
NEWS FROM LAUREL!: The Atenveldt results in the April 2004 Letter of Acceptance and Return are found at the end of this report. This includes submissions from the December 2003 Atenveldt Letter of Intent.
Please consider the following submissions for the October 2004 Atenveldt Letter of Intent:
Áine O Murchadha (Atenveldt): NEW NAME and DEVICE
Purpure, two swords in fess argent between three anchors Or.
Aine is an Irish Gaelic feminine name found in “Index of Names in Irish Annals: Áine,” Mari Elspeth nic Bryan ( http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Aine.shtml ) from 1169 through 1468 (which is when the Annals end; it persists as Áine in Early Modern Irish Gaelic. Documentation for the byname is derived from the Academy of S. Gabriel report 2859 ( http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2859+0 ). Murchadha is shown as the genitive form of the masculine given name Murchadh (itself found in the Index of Names in Irish Annals ( http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Murchad.shtml ). It is shown here as a clan designator rather than a simple patronymic. The submitter is most interest in the sound of the name; she will not accept Major changes to the name.
Alyne Strangwych (Twin Moons): NEW BADGES
(fieldless) An acorn Or.
(fieldless) An oak leaf argent.
The name was registered July 2003.
Brymstone, College of (ASU): NEW BADGE
(fieldless) A three-headed hound passant Or.
The name was registered March 1990. The badge is for the use of the populace and uses an element of the group’s registered armory, Per bend sinister sable and gules, a three-headed hound passant within a laurel wreath Or. A populace consent form has been included.
Catriona Tylwyth Teg (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME and DEVICE
Argent, a fret and on a chief wavy azure three escallops argent.
Catriona stated to be the Gaelic form of Catherine. In Ó Corráin and Maguire, the feminine given Irish Gaelic name is spelled as Caitríona, the modern/late period form of Caíterina (p. 45). No documentation was provided for the byname, but Tylwyth Teg is Welsh for “the fair people,” a reference to Welsh fairies who live in lakes or streams or in hollows of the hills ( http://www.pantheon.org/articles/t/tylwyth_teg.html ). This violates RfS PART VI.2 Names Claiming Powers. – Names containing elements that allude to powers that the submitter does not possess are considered presumptuous. Society names may not claim divine descent, superhuman abilities, or other powers that the submitter does not actually possess. Such claims include divine patronymics, like Vulcanson ; epithets peculiarly associated with divinities or superhuman beings, such as of the Valkyrie ; given names that were never used by humans, like the names of some Giants or Dwarves in Norse mythology; or descriptive epithets like Worldblaster. The submitter cares more about the sound of the name; she is interested in having a 12th-14th C. name.
Dante McGavin (Atenveldt): NEW NAME and DEVICE
Per saltire purpure and azure, an anchor and on a chief argent, four trefoils slipped vert.
Dante is a masculine Italian given name, found in “Italian Names from Florance, 1427,” Ferrante LaVolpe ( http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/ferrante/catasto/ ). (O) Gavan, Gavin is an Irish surname found in MacLysaght, 6th ed., p. 120; a discussion of attaching Mac to surnames, even if the root isn’t a maculine given name, is found in the same source, p. ix. While Italian and Anglicized Irish name element combinations are not registerable, I’m not sure of this, if the McGavin part could be considered “straight” Irish Gaelic. The submitter is most interested in the sound of the name; he will not accept Major changes to the name.
Elizabeth M’Kena O’Bannon (Atenveldt): NAME CHANGE from Elizabeth Mac Kenna Mac Gavin (appears on 25 February 2004 Atenveldt LoI)
The submitter is altering her name submission so that it doesn’t appear that she has married her brother, Dante McGavin (Dante is her husband). Elizabeth is found in England with this spelling from 1205 (Withycombe, 3rd ed., pp. 99-100, s.n. Elizabeth). Patrick Woulfe shows M’Kena as English forms of the Irish Gaelic mac Cionaodha, during the time of Elizabeth I - James I (s.n. macCionaodha). O’Bannon is the name of several distinct sept in Ireland (MacLysaght, 6th edition, p. 12, s.n. (O) Bannon). The submitter is most interested in the sound of the name and will not accept Major changes.
Felicity Jane Tuffen (Windale): NEW NAME and DEVICE
Ermine, a pile throughout Or surmounted by a turtle vert.
The name is English. Withycombe comments that there were two saints by the name of Felicitas, but that this feminine given name came into English use in very late period, when abstract concepts were introduced as given name; Phelisstie is cited in 1641 (Withycombe, 3rd ed., pp. 116-7); on the other hand, a similar feminine name, Felicia, came into English use as early as 1199. Jane is a feminine given name first seen in the 15th C. English Coventry Mysteries (ibid, p. 172). No documentation was provided for Tuffen and it couldn’t be found, but Reaney and Wilson show a Tuffeld in 1524 (2nd ed., p. 451, s.n. Tovell).
While original blazoned as Or, chausse ermine..., this is a good depiction of a real pile (gasp!), as it issues from the chief, and not from the upper corners of the field.
Katherine Throckmorton (Twin Moons): NEW BADGE
(fieldless) A rabbit salient azure, attired as a stag Or, sustaining a Catherine wheel gules.
The name appears in the September 2004 Letter of Intent.
Kegan Glyndwr (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME and DEVICE
Per chevon sable and papellony argent and gules, two wyverns passant argent.
All documentation cited by the submitter (online citations not found in the Medieval Names Archive), and that which appears in MacLysaght show Kegan as an Irish surname (MacLysaght comments that the corrupted O Caogain form is more correct as Mac Aodhagain, p. 172). The comment by the submitter that Keagan is currently in use in the SCA is not supported by the online Ordinary; there is one example of Keegan and one of Kegan, both functioning as surnames, not given names. No documentation was provided for the byname. Owain Glyndwr was a hero for Welsh nationalism (c. 1349-1416), and the byname could be used here (http://www.castlewales.com/glyndwr.html ). Contrary to what is believed, Gaelic and Welsh elements cannot be registered in a single name. The submission is most interested in the sound and language/culture of the name and is interested in an authentic 12th-14th C. name for language and/or culture.
Ivan Kosinski (Twin Moons): NEW BADGE
(fieldless) An enfield rampant contourny azure maintaining a padlock argent.
The name was registered September 1997.
The following submissions appear in the September 2004 Atenveldt Letter of Intent:
Commentary is provided by Angela Sara Maria Diaz de Valdes [AdV], Aryanhwy merch Catmael [AmC], Knute Hvitabjörn [KH], Katherine Throckmorton [KT], and Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy [MMM].
Aífe Fael ingen Brénainn (Tir Ysgithr): NEW BADGE: (fieldless) A pawprint per pale gules and vert.
There is a weirdness for the non-period SCA compatible paw print. [KH] Very nice extrapolation from the device! [AdV]
Though not all elements of a paw print touch each other, this should be acceptable in a fieldless badge even though the parts are not-connected for the same reason that ermine spots are; a paw print is a single, coherent charge, not separate charges. [AmC]
Angus of Loch Leven (Burning Sands): NEW NAME and DEVICE
Azure, a fess wavy argent between a trident Or and two dolphins haurient embowed respectant argent.
"When Withycombe is discussing names in languages other than English, she is usually referring to modern forms. [Jeane of Cumbrae, 02/02, A-Meridies]" Black s.n. Angus has <Angus mac Dunec'> c.1204-1211, and <Angus> son of <Somerled> c.1150. These are Scots forms. Black s.n. Leven merely says "Local. Perhaps from <Leven> in Scoonie parish, Fife. There is another <Leven> in Innerkip parish, Renfrewshire." There was no entry for <Lochleven>. Johnston s.n. Leven has <Lochleuine> a. 955, <Lochlewyn> 1145, <Lohuleuene> 1156. <Angus of Lochlewyn> is a great 12th C Scots name. [AmC]
Knut reblazons this as Azure, a fess wavy argent between the Greek symbol for psi Or and two dolphins haurient embowed respectant argent. The trident was not drawn identifiably. It is drawn solely with right angles. The shaft and all three arms/tines of the trident are of the same uniform width. The tines of the trident have blunt squared-off ends, which lack the barbs which allow the trident to function. The charge is, in general, too stylized and geometric a depiction to be perceived as a trident. This thus violates RfS VII.7.a, which requires that "Elements must be recognizable solely from their appearance." LoAR 03/04 Ragna Eyverska R - Middle.
The picture always takes precedence over the submitter's blazon. This "trident" is recognizable, blazonable and registerable as the Greek symbol for psi, not as a trident. A trident's handle should be much longer than the tines. [KH] Contacting the submitter through his local herald, Lord Oslaf, has resulted in a slightly modified design: Azure, a trident Or surmounted by a fess wavy, in base two dolphins haurient embowed respectant argent. [MMM]
Damaris Baróid (Atenveldt): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Per chevron sable and vert, in chief a pegasus passant argent.
The line of division is too low and too shallow. “[Per chevron argent and azure, in chief a rose slipped and leaved fesswise and in base six gouttes three two and one, counterchanged] The device does not clearly use a per chevron line of division, nor does it use a point pointed. Because of this ambiguity this must be returned under RfS VII.7.a. Note that a per chevron line of division should appear to divide the field into two equal pieces. This emblazon does not give that appearance. One reason is that the per chevron line is drawn somewhat low on the field - it appears to have been drawn by using the form's guidelines for a per saltire division and drawing the bottom section of that field. In addition, the fact that the rose in chief is drawn as a small charge, with lots of field around it, implies that it is not a charge filling its half of an equally divided field.” [Duvessa of Movilla, 03/03, R-Middle] Precedents - François, under FIELD DIVISION -- Per Chevron and Per Chevron Inverted. and “Lorccán hua Conchobair. Device. Per chevron argent and vert, a phoenix and a lantern counterchanged. Please advise the submitter to draw the per chevron line more steeply (90 degrees or less. More acutely. "Pointier"). LoAR 07/03 A - CAID” Placing a charge directly above the point of a per chevron field division is poor style because it either doesn't give enough room for the charge or it forces the division out of position which severely hurts it's identifiability. This division barely reaches the fess line which means that it doesn't divide the field in half. A redraw would be nice. [KH, AmC] I’ve redrawn the line of division with a steeper pitch. [MMM]
Eleanor Cleavely (Sundragon): DEVICE RESUBMISSION from Laurel, April 2004
Per fess azure and sable, a harp Or strung argent and a lion dormant Or.
The name was registered February 2000.
The original submission was returned because it was perceived that the color of the harp and lion on the forms we received is decidedly orange, not Or. Orange is not a heraldic tincture, and its use in this context is grounds for return. The problem has been corrected.
Elias Loredan (Atenveldt): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Sable, a horse rampant and in chief a compass star, all within a bordure embattled.
This [name documentation] doesn't look to bad, given the documentation for the Doge and from Yehoshua's article. [AmC]
The biggest problem with the arms are that they are not drawn on a standard shield shape, and so must be returned for administrative reasons. [AmC]
First, this appears to be a non-standard form. In an embattled bordure, the embattlements shouldn't reach all the way through the bordure. The bordure is too thin and the embattlements are too small. “[Chevronelly inverted argent and azure ... a bordure compony gules and argent] Precedent does not allow a compony ordinary to share a tincture with an underlying plain field: [Per pale, a pale compony counterchanged] The use of a compony ordinary that shares a tincture with its field has been disallowed since at least the LoAR of July 85; the precedent was confirmed Sept 87, April 89, and Aug 90. This submission is an excellent illustration of the
reason for the ban: the visual appearance is not of a pale, but of a group of billets straddling the field division. The lack of identifiability is sufficient reason for return. We suggest making the pale a solid tincture. (LoAR August, 1993, pg. 20) Because of the identifiability issues, this must be returned for violating RfS VII.7.a. If documentation can be provided for this practice in period armory, we can then consider whether the identifiability issues should be overridden based on a documented exception.” [Ivak Marzik, 02/03, R-Æthelmearc] Precedents - François, under IDENTIFIABILITY. The horse's tail shouldn't obscure the rear leg.
The horse completely lacks internal detailing. The horse appears to be drawn in a trian depiction, between affronty and in profile. The annulet in the compass rose is too thin to be identifiable. [KT]
That pretty much sums this up. The charge in chief is not a compass rose, as it lacks the fleur-de-lys “north” pointer; by the same token, it isn’t a compass star, because a default compass star doesn’t have the annulet circling it. I believe that the peripheral charge is intended to be a bordure embattled. Having consulted the submitter, he is going with a (correctly rendered) Sable, a horse rampant and in chief a compass rose, all within a bordure argent. [MMM]
Freydis inn kyrra Alfarinsdottir (Brymstone): NEW DEVICE: Sable, on a pale Or a lucet, gules.
Considering Asa Lee Durant: Sable, on a pale Or three compass stars sable., there is a single CD for multiple changes to the tertiary charges; this is a conflict. [KH] The submitter has been contacted, and with a little massaging of the device, it will be sent on as Sable fretty, on a pale Or a lucet, gules. [MMM]
Gasparre di Lucca (Kingdom of Atenveldt): NEW NAME
I feel the overwhelming urge to give this submitter a big sloppy kiss. Clean, simple and absolutely period. [KT] Yes, I kind of get that urge, too. [MMM] Run, Gasparre, run!!
Gawin Nordmann (Twin Moons): NEW NAME
And it looks like he succeded admirably (in devising a German language name). [KT]
Gawin Nordmann: NEW DEVICE
Ermine, in pale two lions combattant gules and a cross potent Or fimbriated all within a bordure embattled sable.
The Or cross on an ermine field violates RfS VIII.2.b.i. [KH]
[(Fieldless) On a cross moline argent fimbriated gules, a lion's head contourny sable] A cross moline is too complex to fimbriate. Note that being fieldless is not itself a reason to return a fimbriated charge; while the fimbriation is not needed to avoid a contrast problem, it is nevertheless a valid design feature. [Andrew Talbot, 07/99, R-Ansteorra]
[returning a Jerusalem cross fimbriated] It is Laurel's belief that a cross potent, the central cross in a cross of Jerusalem, falls into the same "too complex to fimbriate" category as roses and suns. Even were that not felt to be the case, however, the amount of fimbriation, of both the cross potent and the four surrounding crosses couped, is excessive and sufficient grounds for return in and of itself. (Sebastian Blacke, 12/95 p. 22) [MMM] I’ve contacted the submitter, and he understands the issues here; he has asked that the cross be changed to sable.
Giovanna Gabbriella Donati (Twin Moons): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Quarterly sable and argent, in pale a crescent and a fleur-de-lys counterchanged.
Another good name. Although it is not mentioned in the documentation, double given names can be found in: http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/venice14/ If the submitter wants a absolutely *typical* name she should drop one of the given names, but as it stands this is a very good 15th century Italian name. [KT]
Gwylym Bryn (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Per pale vert and sable, two bears rampant addorsed argent.
Since he states he wants a Welsh name, I would suggest changing the name to give him one of the attested spellings. The source that he cited for his name has includes: Gwyllm which is really close, I’d suggest using that one. [KT]
Both Knut and the submitter himself(!) noted that the blazon was missing the argent demisun, hence the blazon ought to be Per pale vert and sable, in pale a demi-sun and two bears rampant addorsed argent. Knut finds no conflict. [MMM]
Helena de Argentoune (Tir Ysgithr): DEVICE RESUBMISSION from Laurel, October 1985: Per bend sable and gules, a senmurv volant bendwise Or.
“...The senmurv is an Iranian monster consisting of the front half of a dog and the wings and rear body of a bird. It was copiously documented (Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin XX (Nov. 1961), "The Senmurv," Prudence Harper).” LoAR 02/83 Bahram the Resplendent A - An Tir [KH]
Senmurv/simurgh doesn’t really describe the bird. It is closer to (and probably is) a Chinese phoenix (Feng Huang/Fenghuang). In China, the Feng Huang was believed to control the five tones of traditional Chinese music and to represent the Confucian virtues of loyalty, honesty, decorum and justice. Its image first appears on Shang artifacts of China's Western Zou Period, about 3,000 years ago. ( http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/ho-oo-phoenix.shtml ) It will be reblazoned as such. [MMM]
Reagan of the White Dawn: Per bend sinister azure and vert, a songbird migrant bendwise maintaining in its beak a flute bendwise sinister Or. and Reagan of the White Dawn: Azure, a songbird migrant bendwise, maintaining in its beak a fusa, Or. There is 1 CD for field. There is a possible CD for the "maintained" charges. Both registrations were made long before Bruce Draconarius’ maintained/sustained precedent and might be misblazoned by current standards. There might b difference between the birds, but this will need to be a Wreath
decision because Wreath's table of period bird postures doesn't explicitly cover any of the birds involved here. Pass this up. [KH]
Juliana van de Rozentuin (Granite Mountain): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Per pale vert and gules, a cross throughout palewise argent charged with four roses gules.
The only evidence that I have found for any form of Juliana in the Low Countries is from the late-16th century. A 'Douchwoman' was recorded as Julyan in English, and another, from Brabant, was recorded as Gillian, per my "Names of Aliens in London, 1571" ( http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/drafts/aliens.html ). Julian would be my best guess at the Dutch form of the name. [AmC]
Alternate blazon: Per pale vert and gules, a cross couped fesswise argent charged with four roses in pale gules. Throughout is the default for crosses. The couped needs to be specified. This might have problems for blurring the distinction between a cross and a cross couped or non period style issues. [KH] Knut’s blazon is much more accurate and the device will be submitted using his suggestion.
Katherine Throckmorton (Brymstone): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Gules, on a pale argent a Catherine wheel gules.
Lovely name. [AmC]
The submitter will however accept dropping the “c” if no one can find a period document that includes the “c” in the name. Do Reaney and Wilson give a date on Throckmorton? She asks because the well known-ish Throckmortons seem to show up in books with the “c” in the name, although this may be a case of modernized spelling. She also wishes to state-for the record that she really, truly thought she saw the “c” on the list of names, but must have been hallucinating. She would however, really, really like to keep the “c” since it is spelled like that in her email address. [KT] Reaney and Wilson suggest that the name is a locative, from Throckmorton (Worcestershire), so if that’s a period spelling of the town, it should apply to the surname; the spelling Throckmorton in the citation title is not dated. [MMM]
Considering Canada: Gules, on a pale argent a maple leaf gules. and Katherine Linnet Holford: Gules, on a pale argent a domestic cat statant reguardant, back arched, between two cinquefoils in pale, sable., there are single CDs for multiple changes to tertiaries. [KH] After manymanymany emails with the submitter, who really only wants a simple device, it appears that Per saltire argent and gules, two Catherine wheels gules., is clear of conflict.
Matteo de Aragon (Twin Moons): NEW NAME and DEVICE
Per bend gules and vert, on a bend argent cotised Or four ermine spots sable.
The name is Italian. Matteo is a masculine given name found in “Online Tratte of Office Holders 1282-1532,” edited by David Herlihy et al. ( http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/tratte/ ). de Arigone is found in Northern Italy and is referenced in “Masculine Names from Thirteenth Century Pisa,” Juliana de Luna ( http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/pisa/ ); de Aragon would appear to be a reasonable variation. Alternately, this might be considered a name with Italian and Spanish elements (a weirdness, but registerable), if one considers Aragon as the region in Spain and this a locative byname. (This could be made completely Spanish were the spelling of the given name Mateo.) The submission is most interested in a 15th C. Italian (or Italian/Spanish) name; he will not accept major changes to the name.
I'm not sure about this. The "e" wouldn't be silent, so the pronunciation would be rather different. I can see a English speaker getting "Aragon" out of "Arigone" based on the spelling, but I'm not sure that a speaker of a Romance language would do so. As Brickbat notes, the name is registerable in its current form. However, the name would be improved if the submitter would consider either changing the byname to de Arigone and making the name totally Italian or dropping one of the "t"s and making the name wholly Spanish. The former is most in line with the submitters expressed preference, although of the two, the latter would do the least amount of violence to the pronunciation of the name. Although the College does not take persona into account, the submitter may wish to consider that the odds of a Spaniard living in Italy for a extended amount of time is actually pretty good. [KT]
Rickard Hawthorne (Atenveldt): NEW NAME and DEVICE
Per chevron azure and vert, on a chevron argent between in chief a decrescent and an increscent and in base a tree eradicated argent, two chevronels sable. Or: Per chevron azure and vert, on a chevron sable fimbriated between in chief a decrescent and an increscent and in base a tree eradicated, a chevronel argent.
The name is clear of Richard Hawthorne of Stonebridge (reg. 11/92), by removal of an element. [AmC]
There might be an issue with both voiding and fimbriating a charge. [KH]
Or, are the two little stripes in the middle intended to be sable chevronels on the larger argent chevron as in the left side redraw? As to the blazons of the redraws, the one on the right is not cottised, it is fimbriated. “…a chevron sable, fimbriated and charged of a chevronel argent.” Cottises, whether singular or double do not touch the larger chevron. [KH, AmC] [Yes, I messed up the blazon there. – Marta] I would count this as 4 tinctures (azure, vert, sable, argent), 1 field division (Per chevron), 1 ordinary (a chevron), and 3 charge types, (crescent, tree, chevronel used as a charge, not an ordinary) which brings us to 9 elements. Any possibility we could talk him into dropping the sable and just going with an argent chevron cottised? Or dropping the other argent stripe and just going with a sable chevron fimbriated argent? Either way knocks out one element, but it is still pretty maxed out. [AdV]
Gosh, I love the internet...I contacted the gentleman and proposed both alternatives: he wishes the emblazon to have the chevron argent charged with two chevronels sable. [MMM]
Robert Kyle MacEoin (Twin Moons): NEW NAME, DEVICE and BADGE
(Device) Per chevron sable and argent, three skulls one and two and a jester’s cap counterchanged.
(Badge) Quarterly sable and gules, a wolf’s head erased argent and a bordure indented Or.
The badge is clear but needs to be redrawn. [KH] The pointed bits on the badge bordure are really too small and too numerous, and their angled position is not truly indented, nor any other period line of division. [KT] Having contacted the submitter via email, he gives his permission to correct the emblazon. [MMM]
Robert Leslie MacAlister (Brymstone): NEW NAME
The name is entirely Scots. [AmC]
Something keeps nagging at the inside of my brain thinking that Robert Leslie is someone famous. Can’t remember why I think that and it is driving me nuts! [AdV] The second surname should clear it, even if Robert Leslie (period) is a famous fellow. [MMM]
If it makes any difference, the name could be presented as either an English/Anglicized Scots Gaelic name or a Scots/Anglicized Scots Gaelic name, since Leslie was used in both England and Scotland. [KT]
Roland DeWinter (Twin Moons): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Per bend argent and azure, a bird close sable and a wolf’s head reversed erased argent.
This would be much better as "de Winter". [KT]
Consider Vincetta de Jarvain: Per bend argent and azure, a panther's head couped sable and a wolf's head couped argent. There is 1 CD type of half of primary group, and 1 CD facing of half of primary group. [KH] This is very close but clear by count. [MMM]
Róise MacCracken (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Or, between a chevron and a chevron inverted braced a bee purpure.
Although it is no doubt a “weirdness” [Combining an Irish Gaelic name with a Anglicized Scots Gaelic element is probably considered a "weirdness" by the College of Arms.] it is also most likely registerable. Laurel has recently registered a Scots Gaelic/Anglicized Irish name (Banbnat MacDermot, 09/01) and I would assume that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. [KT]
Sancha Pinheiro da Ilha Terceira (Twin Moons): NEW NAME
The name is Portugese. All elements are found in Anais da Ilha Terceira, Vol. 1, Francisco Ferreira Drummond, Governo Autonomo Dos Acores, Secretaria Regional de Educacao e Cultura, 1981 (reprint of an 1850 edition–copies to Laurel). Sancha is also found as a feminine given name in “Portuguese Feminine Names from Lisbon, 1565,” Aryanhwy merch Catmael ( http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/fem1565.html ). D. Diogo Pinheiro, a regional governor, is cited c. 1488, in Anais da Ilha Terceira, p. 74. Ilha Terceira, or Terceira Island, is one of the Azore Islands, and was a harbor for cargo ships from the Americas beginning in the 16th C. ( http://www.eurosun.com/terceira.htm ).
Sigrid Finnsdottir (Atenveldt): NEW DEVICE: Per fess embattled azure and Or, three compass stars Or, and a drakkar reversed proper, sailed azure.
The embattling should be a bit deeper. There is a weirdness for the non period SCA compatible compass stars. [KH] The embattling has been adjusted. [MMM]
Svanhild bogsveigira færeyjaska (Twin Moons): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Per saltire azure and vert, a swan naiant contourny respectant, bearing in its beak an arrow reversed vert, and an orle argent.
Knut reblazons this as Per saltire azure and vert, on a swan naiant contourny reguardant within an orle argent an arrow reversed vert. Argh. The head is indeed regardant, not respectant. Visually, the arrow is a tertiary charge [rather than a maintained one]. “As drawn, the arrows are not recognizable from any distance: the points and fletching are too small, and the shafts too narrow. Arrows in period armorial art were drawn with exaggerated barbs and feathers, the better to be identified. We've returned badly-drawn arrows in the past (v. the LoAR of July 92, p.18), per Rule VIII.3; these must likewise be returned.” LoAR 08/93, Ron of Sundragon R - ATENVELDT The arrow has identifiability problems. The barbing and fletching is too small. It also appears to be barely overall since it appears to touch the field at the base of the swan's neck. [KH] The swan has been Rolfed again so that the arrow is completely lying upon the body; likewise, the arrow has been beefed up. [MMM]
Syele von der Rosen (Atenveldt): DEVICE RESUBMISSION from Laurel, April 2004
Per pale sable and gules, a pale of four lozenges Or, each charged with a rose proper, between in chief an increscent and a decrescent Or.
The name was registered April 2004.
The original submission was returned because the color of the sinister half of the field on the forms was determined to be orange, not gules. The bottom lozenge of the group is not whole, being cut off by the edge of the shield; in a design where each lozenge of an ordinary of lozenges is charged, the lozenges should all be complete. These problems have been corrected.
Tegen of Liskeard (Mons Tonitrus): NEW NAME, DEVICE and BADGE
(device) Argent, a chameleon vert, feet and tail tip gules, perched atop a heart gules, an orle purpure.
(fieldless badge) A Cornish chough proper maintaining a peacock feather proper.
Tegan is listed in Gaelic Personal Names as a diminutive of the Irish masculine name Teagh. My copy of the book is currently on loan to a friend and I (GASP!) can’t remember the author! [AdV]
The submitter needs to be informed that according to Arval Beniceour and Tangwystl verch Morgant’s article on the name Tegan there is no evidence for Tegan being used as a name before modern times. They note that the name is not implausible, as it could be constructed from common Welsh name elements, just that it dosen’t seem to have been used. Tegen, which I would assume is a variant spelling, isn’t featured in the article. The full thing can be found at: http://www.medievalscotland.org/problem/names/tegan.shtml Unfortunately, the only article that I can find online about Cornish names is 10th century, well after the submitters desired period. Since there does seem to be a fair amount of overlap between Welsh and Cornish names, the submitter may wish to consider the name “Tede” found in http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/welshWomen16/given.html or Tegfedd cited in the article on Tegan. The name is probably registerable in its current form; however this may be a case of the submitter needing to choose between registering the precise name that they have chosen and authenticity. [KT]
Argent, in pale a chameleon statant conjoined to a heart gules within an orle purpure. The chameleon obscures the top of the heart, rendering it unidentifiable. There are reproducibility issues with the tincturing of the chameleon's feet and tail. [KH] I’ve taken the “perched atop” blazon from the blazon for a badge registered to Kedivor Tal ap Cadugon in July 2000, (Fieldless) In pale a peacock close perched atop a hawk's bell Or. Maybe statant would be more accurate (birds perch, quadrupeds stand). The submitter has provided a clearer emblazon, and this will simply be a chameleon vert (no chameleony things going on with its toes and tail). [MMM]
Knut suggests a far more accurate blazon for the badge: (fieldless) A peacock feather bendwise sinister proper surmounted by a Cornish chough proper.
Timm der Bährherz (Iron Wood Loch): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Argent, a fess dovetailed azure between four lozenges and a bear’s paw print gules.
The fess should be a bit wider. There is a weirdness for the non-period SCA compatible paw print. The unbalanced distribution of secondary charges might be worth a weirdness. [KH]
Varr the Silent (Tir Ysgithr): NEW DEVICE: Azure, a chevron inverted between a cubit arm appaumy argent and two bees proper.
The name was registered October 2003.
A proper heraldic bee is banded sable and Or, with argent wings. As a cubit arm is shown with the hand clenched in a fist, does it seem reasonable that “a cubit arm appaumy” demonstrates that this charge is not showing a fist?
The size discrepancy between the arm and the bees might be a problem. The difference in sizes makes them appear to be different charge groups but the arrangement places them in the same group. Considering Ealasaid MacDonald: Azure, a chevron inverted between three crescents one and two argent., there is a single CD for type of secondaries, but no CD for the tincture of the secondaries because the sable and Or portion if the bees is less than half of the entire charge group. [KH] Upon consultation with the submitter, he agrees to making the bees Or banded sable, which provides the second needed CD vs. Ealasaid’s armory.
“Appaumy” is usually used not to denote an open hand, but to denote that the hand or the fist had the palm facing the viewer or the knuckles facing the viewer. The terms “hand” and “fist” already tell you what attitude the thing is in, appaumy tells you which direction it faces. Perhaps one might say “an open-handed cubit arm.” [AdV] A look through the Ordinary shows cubit arms that are not clenched as a fist “the hand in benediction” or clasping one another. [MMM]
The following submissions are returned for further work by the Atenveldt College of Heralds, September 2004:
Gavin Featherstone (Mons Tonitrus): NEW DEVICE AND BADGE
(device) Gules, a base sable, overall a ship’s wheel argent.
(badge) Gules, a base sable, overall a ship’s wheel argent.
“The ship's wheel is apparently not a period charge. Barring documentation to the contrary this must be returned.” (Hans Van Hoorn, 3/98 p. 18) Precedents - Jaelle, under Wheel. “Overall charges may not surmount peripheral charges such as chiefs."The orle overlying the point violates the rule prohibiting overall charges over peripheral charges."” (LoAR October 1999, p. 22). [Miles de Colwell, 12/01, R-Lochac] Precedents - François, under CHARGE -- Overall. The sable base on the gules field violates RfS VIII.2.b.i. [KH] These issues apply both to the device and the badge. I find it hard to believe that ship’s did not have wheels for steering by 1600; artifacts or period illustrations could be used to document the existence of such an object, were the submitter eager to pursue this; however, the submitter also must realize that a ship’s wheel is likely to conflict with a wagon wheel and Catherine wheel (anything round and spoked). Barring conflict, the issues raised could be solved by making the field Per fess gules and sable, an X argent, or Gules, an X and a base argent. [MMM]
RETURNED for multiple problems. As there is no record of a name submission, the submissions would’ve had to have been returned anyway.
Nikolai Afanasii Zemlin (Twin Moons): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Quarterly sable and gules, a dragon segreant Or.
The name is Russian and all elements are found in “A Dictionary of Period Russian Names (and some of their Slavic roots),” Paul Wickenden of Thanet ( http://www.sca.org/heraldry/paul/ ). Nikolai is a masculine given name the Russianization of Nicholas, dated to 1291. Afanasii is a masculine given name dated to 1476. However, in this position of the name, it is a patronymic and should take one of the numerous patronymics listed in the citation: Afanas'ev 1567; Afanas'evich, 1614; Afonas'ev 1593; and 10 others. (An alternative is to add syn after the undifferentiated father’s name, so Afanasii syn.) Zemlin is stated as “derived from Zemlia (?) for use as a surname.” This doesn’t justify how Zemlin became Zemlia (is there a grammatical basis for it?); Zemlia itself is a masculine given name, a variant of the given name Zemle, dated to 1454. Just because some names once might have meant something (Afanasii, “immortal”; Zemle, “on earth”), they had lost most, if not all, meaning by our scope of a medieval period, and they were not picked out of the culture’s name pool for specific “meanings.” The submitter is most interested in the sound and language of the name.
I wish everyone could see the colored submission forms I received for this, and why I strongly advocate NOT using a color photocopier to make copies; the dragon here appears orange (orange is not a period tincture, and it cannot be used as a subsitute or alternative for Or), and if there are no conflicts with the device, it will still have to be redrawn and recolored.
Since the submitter cares most about sound, I'd suggest simply adding "syn" (to the name in the patronymic position, Afanasii). [KT]
Consider Gunthar von Drachenschloss: Quarterly sable and gules, a dragon segreant within a bordure Or. There is a single CD for the bordure. Richard of the Silverdawn: Gyronny gules and ermine, a lion dragon erect Or. There is a CD for the field; I'd give a CD for type of primary (hence, clear). Arenvald von Hagenburg:
Per chevron chequy Or and azure and sable, in base a dragon segreant Or. There is a single CD for the field; there is no CD for the forced placement of the registered device. Rhydderich Hael, Barony of the: Per pale vert and sable, a dragon segreant Or. There is one CD for the field. Godwin of Edington: Per saltire sable and gules, a dragon segreant Or. There is one CD for the field. Ulric Grimmheld: Sable, a dragon segreant guardant maintaining a sledge-hammer Or. There is a CD for the field. “Because a seadragon is almost identical in shape to a wyvern, which is an artistic variant of a dragon, there is not a CD between a dragon and
a seadragon...” [Muirgheal inghean uí Ógaín, 12/00, R-Atlantia] Precedents - Elsbeth, under MONSTER -- Dragon and Wyvern. As such, Davin Kinnard MacAilean: Barry wavy azure and argent, a sea-dragon erect Or, its tail supporting a hammer bendwise sable. has 1 CD for the field and possibly 1 CD for the hammer. [KH] Katherine commented on the conflict with Gunthar. (This was a simple enough piece of armory with enough potential problems that it should’ve not been sent on. [MMM])
RETURNED for multiple conflicts; as there are significant questions witih the name construction, the name is RETURNED for clarification as well.
Roland de Laon (Atenveldt): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Per chevron inverted vert and sable, in chief a wolf dormant Or.
Roland is a masculine given name, dated to 1526 in “Given Names from Brittany, 1384-1600,” Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvry ( http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/latebreton/ ). The byname is a locative; Laon is a town 100 miles northeast of Paris and the site of an early Gothic-style cathedral built in the 12th C. ( http://www.laonafb.com/history.htm ). We are concerned that the name might be in aural conflict with the registered name Roland de Lyon (August 1990). While the submitter has marked his forms as accepting no Major or Minor changes, he is aware that he might have to modify the name, based on responses to this letter.
The armory is close to Colin Attewood: Lozengy vert and argent, a mastiff couchant Or, collared gules. We count 1 CD for differences of the field and 1 CD for an unforced move of the wolf to chief.
Well, just before I became the Aten Principal Herald, several years ago, the CoH registered a “Rognvald Bloodaxe” out in the Shire of Iron Wood Loch, when there already was a “Ragnvald Bloodaxe” registered in the Barony of Atenveldt! (or vice versa, I’m a little fuzzy on which lived where!) Something my predecessor did not catch, and the CoH didn’t either! When I asked Laurel why that had been done, the answer was basically, “Oops, we probably shouldn’t have!” They let it stand though. I left a big, red marker note in the inside of each gentle’s file in the Aten Herald’s files so that if either decides to register something else, the herald will be sure to get the right guy. So I doubt they will let this one pass through. Look back at the trouble we had getting Master Raibert’s name through. Didn’t matter how it was spelled, the CoA said it was still pronounced the same. So he had to add a lot of stuff to his name to clear it from the other guy. [AdV]
I agree with the conflict. The change in one letter does not create a significant difference in spelling, which is required to clear name conflicts. [AmC]
I feel that aural conflict should not be an issue in this case. Aural conflict is only comes into play if the bynames are mispronounced. If they are pronounced correctly the names, while pretty close are not identical. [KT]
Rules for Submission PART V - NAME CONFLICT: “Names may not be too similar to the names of others, as is required by General Principle 3a of these rules. Names need to be distinguished from each other both in their written form and when heard in announcements.” I think it would be in the submitter’s best interest to choose another element so that this is not returned for conflict with Roland de Lyon; I suspect the Rognvald/Ragnvald issue is the best example here, where the one submitter later should’ve been returned for conflict. Considering a one-letter spelling difference caused the return of Temur Khana’s submission (below), I think this reinforces Aryanhwy’s comment. [MMM]
Name RETURNED for potential conflict; Device HELD/RETURNED pending acceptable name submission.
Sancha Pinheiro da Ilha Terceira: NEW DEVICE: Per bend sinister vert and gules, a bend sinister between an eagle and a pine tree couped Or.
The bend should be wider. Considering Congo: Per bend sinister vert and gules, a bend sinister Or., there is a single CD for added secondaries. Dagon Robert Fenwick: Per bend sinister vert and gules, a bend sinister between two quill pens bendwise sinister Or. and Eric of Kethkart: Per bend sinister vert and gules, a bend sinister cotised Or., in both cases there is only 1 CD for types of secondaries. [KH]
RETURN for multiple conflicts.
Vladimir Dragos syn (Granite Mountain): NEW DEVICE: Argent, chaussé sable, two cutlasses inverted crossed in saltire surmounted by a skull gules.
The cutlasses aren't in saltire. Each is essentially palewise. The only reason that they cross is the curvature of the blades. This is blurring the distinction between palewise and in saltire. When considered as Sable, on a pile argent, Morgan MacNeil of Clan Fergus: Sable, on a pile argent a sword inverted gules, the hilt between three crescents, one and two, azure., there are no CDs, since both tertiary groups contain inverted swords gules, the only thing that can be considered different is the number of tertiary charges, and changing only the number of tertiaries isn't worth a CD. Cydrych Wallas: Sable, on a pile azure fimbriated argent an open book Or transfixed by a sword inverted argent hilted sable., as anything blazoned as fimbriated can be reblazoned in terms of a tertiary charge. This can be considered as Sable, on a pile argent a pile azure an open book Or transfixed by a sword inverted argent hilted sable., so that there is a single CD for multiple changes to the tertiary group. [KT]
The name submission is also returned in the April 2004 LoAR (below).
RETURN for multiple conflicts and violating RfS VIII.
The following submissions were registered by the S.C.A. College of Arms at its April 2004 meetings:
Amalric d'Acre. Name and device. Per chevron embattled vert and Or, two plates and a sheaf of arrows sable.
Some members of the College asked whether this name was presumptuous, citing Amalric (Amaury) I and Amalric (Amaury) II, kings of Jerusalem. The city of Acre was never the capital of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, nor is there any evidence that either of these men was known as Amalric d'Acre. Therefore, there is no presumption. Please instruct the submitter to draw the line of division higher; it is barely registerable as drawn.
Belin bat Kedar. Name and device. Per fess enarched sable and azure, two cinquefoils argent pierced azure and an owl rising guardant wings elevated and addorsed argent.
Submitted as Belen bat Kedar, the given name was documented via the legal name rule. However, this rule only allows a name to be used as the same type of name as found in the person's legal name. Belen is the submitter's middle name; both given names and bynames/surnames are used as middle names. While the College documented similar names used as given names, it has only found this particular spelling used as a byname or place name. Therefore, we are changing the name to Belin bat Kedar; the given name is dated to 1348 in Aryanhwy merch Catmael's article "Jewish Given Names Found in Les Noms Des Israélites en France." The submitter requested authenticity for Jewish language/culture. However, we are unable to fully comply with this request. The patronymic Kedar, documented as a Biblical name, is not one used in Jewish culture in period. However, Biblical names are generally registerable for cultures who drew from the Bible for their name pool.
Catriona of Kyntail. Name change from holding name Catriona of Twin Moons.
This name mixes English and Gaelic orthographies, which is one step from period practice.
Dufan eyðimarkingr. Name.
Submitted as Dufen Eyðimörkingr, we have changed the name to Dufan eyðimarkingr. The spelling of the given name was changed to match the submitted documentation; there is no evidence that a and e are interchangeable when Old Norse is written in a Latin style alphabet. The spelling of the byname was changed to correct the grammar. As Argent Snail notes: "Eyðimörk means indeed desert wilderness and the ending is per se correct. However, mörk is a feminine word where the vowel changes depending on the ending and according to both Zoega and modern Icelandic grammar, the ending -ingr would affect the previous vowel. Thus the correct form of the byname 'eyðimarkingr'. " Finally, we have changed the capitalization of the byname to match documented forms for Old Norse names.
Iona Putnika. Name and device. Or, an octopus and a gore vert.
Submitted as Iona Putnikova, she desired a name meaning "Iona the Wanderer." As submitted, the name means "Iona daughter of a man named Putnik." We have changed the byname to Putnika, a form suggested by Nebuly that has the desired meaning.
Jacques Beauchamp. Device. Per pale sable and argent, a pall between three ermine spots counterchanged.
Lassar Ruad. Name and device. Argent, a horse passant gules within an orle vert.
Submitted as Lassair Ruad, the submitter requested authenticity for Irish Celtic [sic] and accepted only minor changes. As submitted, the name mixes an Early Modern Irish given name spelling with a Middle Irish Gaelic byname spelling. To fulfill the submitter's request for authenticity, we have removed a letter from the given name, giving Lassar Ruad, a fully Middle Irish Gaelic form.
Syele von der Rosen. Name (see RETURNS for device).
The following submissions are returned by the College of Arms for further work, April 2004:
Avilina Andreu. Badge. Per bend sable and azure, two bones crossed in saltire surmounted by a skull argent and a badger rampant maintaining a mullet Or.
This submission violates two different aspects of RfS VIII.1.a, Tincture and Charge Limit. Each violation is sufficient by itself for return: "In no case should the number of different tinctures or types of charges be so great as to eliminate the visual impact of any single design element." This submission has four charge types and four tinctures, arranged such that two of each are entirely on one side of a per bend division. There is no central focus at all, and the visual impact of every element is greatly reduced; that of the mullet is completely destroyed. While this design has a complexity count of only eight, in combination with its complete lack of unity it is simply too complex. "[T]hree or more types of charges should not be used in the same group." (This is commonly known as the 'slot-machine' clause.) The primary charge group here has three types of charge: badger, bones, and skull. This is in accordance with the following precedent: [Returning Vert, two arrows inverted in saltire Or surmounted by a tower argent] Conflict with a badge of Border Vale Keep (registered in April 1985), Vert, two swords in saltire Or surmounted by a stone tower, the top enflamed, proper. Both pieces of armory are effectively a single group (a sheaf) of three charges. [June 2003, Ret-Middle, Nikolai of Trakai] As the charges in each armory cited in the precedent are considered to be in the same group, so must the skull and bones here. Therefore this clause of RfS VIII.1.a is indeed applicable.
Eleanor Cleavely. Device. Per fess azure and sable, a harp "Or" strung argent and a lion dormant "Or".
The color of the harp and lion on the forms we received is decidedly orange, not Or. Orange is not a heraldic tincture, and its use in this context is grounds for return.
Sundragon, Barony of. Badge. Per fess azure and gules, four wolves' teeth issuant from sinister all within a bordure Or.
Nobody present at the Wreath meeting was able to identify this as a combination of wolves' teeth and a bordure. Most thought it was some odd central charge (perhaps a modernish flame sideways?); others noted remarkable similarity to a modern corporate logo. Most of the commentary on this submission concerned identifiability problems as well. Using a combination of one peripheral charge issuant from another peripheral charge, especially of the same tincture, is something that will require extreme care to maintain identifiability.
Syele von der Rosen. Device. Per pale sable and "gules", a pale of four lozenges Or, each charged with a rose proper, between in chief an increscent and a decrescent Or.
The color of the sinister half of the field on the forms we received is decidedly orange, not gules. Orange is not a heraldic tincture, and its use in this context is grounds for return. The bottom lozenge of the group is not whole, being cut off by the edge of the shield; in a design where each lozenge of an ordinary of lozenges is charged, the lozenges should all be complete.
Tatiana Laski Krakowska. Device. Per saltire argent and azure, six mullets argent.
Conflict with Domenica Farnese: Gyronny vert and azure, a mullet of six points within eight mullets of six points in mascle argent; with Robin Arwood: Per fess gules and vert, five mullets in saltire argent; and with Seitse: Vert, mulletty pierced argent. In each case there is a CD for changing the field, but none for number of charges, as six is not different from five or more. Nor is there a CD for arrangement against either Domenica or Robin, as their arrangements are not reproducible on this field, this submission's mullets being forced into the azure quadrants. Comparing against Seitse's mullets the following precedent applies: [mullets vs mullets pierced] Current research seems to indicate that mullets and mullets pierced (or spur rowels) were used interchangeably in period. As a consequence, no difference is currently granted between them. [May 1996, Ret-Atlantia, Agnes Daunce] So there is no CD for not piercing the mullets in this case.
Temur Khana. Name and device. Gules, a ram's head erased within nine lozenges in annulo argent.
This name conflicts with Temur Khan, grandson of Kublai Khan. Temur Khan was Emperor of China and has his own entry in Britannica Online. Although the names do not have the same meaning, they are nearly identical in sound and appearance. Just as we would protect the names of kings of European kingdoms, it is appropriate to protect the names of Chinese emperors. No adequate blazon could be found for the position of the lozenges, violating RfS VII.7.b: "Elements must be reconstructible in a recognizable form from a competent blazon.... elements that cannot be described in such a way that the depiction of the armory will remain consistent may not be used." The submitted blazon would result in all the lozenges being palewise, which does not match the emblazon.
Vladimir Dragos syn. Name.
Conflict with the registered name Vladimir Dragonovich. Both Dragonovich and Dragos syn are patronymics meaning "son of Dragos". RfS V.1.a.ii.a says, "Two bynames of relationship are significantly different if the natures of the relationships or the objects of the relationships are significantly different."
The following submission is pended until the January 2005 Laurel meetings for additional commentary:
Dougal Stewart. Name.
This is being pended for discussion on whether "Dugald Stewart" is important enough to protect. In commentary, Metron Ariston wrote: [T]here may be a problem with the famous late eighteenth century and early nineteenth century mathematician and philosopher Dugald Stewart. This scholar contributed greatly to the popularity and influence of Adam Smith and the acceptance of political economy as an academic discipline. His works exerted great influence through much of the nineteenth century. While he has a lengthy article in the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica (48.1911encyclopedia.org/ S/ST/STEWART_DUGALD.htm), most other modern encyclopedic works also give him a great deal of space and consider him a key figure in the Scottish Enlightenment. For example the Columbia Online Encyclopedia says of him "Dugald Stewart 1753-1828, Scottish philosopher. He studied at the Univ. of Edinburgh, later becoming professor of mathematics (1775-85) and of moral philosophy (1785-1810). After retiring he devoted himself to writing. A student of Thomas Reid and strongly influenced by him, Stewart is credited with aiding in the forming of the Scottish school of philosophy. His work was largely an exposition of Reid's philosophy, accepting the existence of the external world and applying the principle of common sense to the problems of philosophy. An eloquent lecturer and a brilliant writer, he is noted for these abilities rather than for any original philosophical development. Among his works are Outlines of Moral Philosophy (1793), Elements of the Philosophy of the Human Mind (3 vol., 1792-1827), and Philosophical Essays (1810)." (cited at //reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/ S/StewrtD.html).
There were no responses to these comments. We are interested in the College's opinion on this matter.
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