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Kingdom of Atenveldt Home Page

Kingdom of Atenveldt
Heraldic Submissions Page

(administered by the Brickbat Herald)

ATENVELDT COLLEGE OF HERALDS 30 July 2012, A.S. XLVII
LETTER OF PRESENTATION Kingdom of Atenveldt


Unto Their Royal Majesties Thomas and Ilora; Master Seamus, Aten Principal Herald; the Heralds in the Atenveldt College of Heralds; and to All Whom These Presents Come,

Greetings of from Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy, Brickbat Herald and Parhelium Herald for the Kingdom of Atenveldt!


This is the August 2012 Atenveldt Letter of Presentation. Please have commentary to me by 15 August 2012.


Speaking of submissions: I accept direct-to-Kingdom submissions from heraldic clients; this might not be the most favorable route to take, particularly if a group has a territorial herald, and everyone can stay more in the “submission loop” if a submission is made in this fashion. However, in some cases, this is the only reasonable and timely way for a submission to be made. Local heralds need to send submissions on in a timely manner as well (i.e., within one month of receiving a submissions packet). If you cannot connect with me at an event (very likely) or attend Heraldry Hut, submissions need to be mailed within one month (yes, that's IMPORTANT!) of a local herald receiving them, unless there is a reason for return at the local level. My address: Linda Miku, 2527 E. 3rd Street, Tucson AZ 85716.


Submissions Website: You can send electronic commentary on the most recent internal LoIs through the site, in addition to any questions you might have. Current submission forms (the ONLY forms that can be used) can be found on the site, along with guidelines for painlessly filling out the forms. Please let your local populace know about the site, too: atensubmissions.nexiliscom.com.



The following submissions are under consideration for inclusion in the August 2012 Atenveldt Letter of Intent:

Anya Neledina (Ered Sul): NEW NAME and DEVICE

Quarterly Or and vert, a cross nowy sable charged with a peacock in its pride vert, tailed Or.


The name is Russian. Just to be on the safe side, it is better to use name articles as sca.org or the Medieval Names Archive than a generic website (and it needs to be transliterated into English for submission, not using the Cyrillic alphabet; being able to date a name element is far more likely in the two former sites than in the latter ones. Anya does not appear in Paul Goldschmidt's exhaustive “Dictionary of Period Russian Names,” http://heraldry.sca.org/paul/. The Russian form of the feminine given name Anna (the client's legal given name) appears to be Anna, with variants Ana and An'na. In documenting the name Anya of Windale, the March 2007 Atenveldt LoI notes: We couldn't find a citation for Anya; several have been registered by the College of Arms, most recently in March 2000, to Anya Mstislavlyaya. The LoAR which contains that registration notes: "Listed on the Letter of Intent as Anna Mstislavlyaya , the forms listed Annya Mstislavlyaya and the submitter originally requested Anya. As Anya is a reasonable spelling variant of Annya , we are registering the originally requested form." Neledina (a river in Russian) is found in “Locative Bynames in Medieval Russia,” Paul Wickenden of Thanet ( http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/toprus.html ); Neledinskii-Meletskii dates to the 15th C. It seems that the byname needs to be modified to form a correctly-constructed byname – Neledinskaia might be appropriate for a woman who came from a region near/adjacent to this river. The client desires a female name and is most interested in the sound of the name.


I don't believe that there's a bordure here (the submitted blazon didn't include one). This is a cross nowy, not a Celtic cross.

(The submission appears to be colored with wax crayon. The “line drawing” copy that was just photocopied from one of the colored ones. A line drawing should be just that, just the outline of the design. Please check for conflict nonetheless. Thank you.)


Kata the Forthright (Windale): BADGE RESUBMISSION from Laurel, July 2007

(Fieldless) A tress of hair Or surmounted by a single-sided comb sable

The name was registered July 2003.


The client's previous badge submission, (Fieldless) A giant panda sejant erect gardant proper within and conjoined to an annulet sable., was returned by Laurel July 2007: “This badge is returned as a panda is not registerable. As al-Jamal noted: By current precedent, it is not acceptable to use a species of flora or fauna in armory which was not known to Europeans in period: "The primary charge is the leaf of a vanillaleaf plant (genus Achlys). Europeans did not discover it until the 18th century so [it] cannot be used in SCA armory" (LoAR February 2000). The most recent precedent explicitly concerning pandas notes in pertinent part that the panda was not known to Europeans in period: "Lanner provided some distinct evidence that the panda was not seen by an European until this century and that its furs were not known to Europeans until the last century" (LoAR December 1989). The panda is therefore not acceptable for registration. (LoAR February 2002, cf. Zubaydah az-Zahra)” This is a complete redesign.


The charge is found in Banners, Standards and Badges from a Tudor Manuscript in the college of Arms with an Introduction by Lord Howard de Walden, the De Walden Library, MCMIV. Cordons, which were originally tresses of hair, are seen in a standard for John Aouche de Codnore, his being encircled by a coronet (and with a badger standing within each braided loop).


Kollsvein bloðhrafn (Burning Sands): NEW NAME and DEVICE

Argent, two chevronels gules between three raven's heads erased sable.


The name is Old Norse. Kollsveinn is a masculine given name found in “Viking Names found in Landnámabók,” Aryanhwy merch Catmael, http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/landnamabok.html. I don't know whether the single -n vs. the double -nn at the end of the name is a problem or not. I believe the client constructed the byname from similar examples in Geirr Bassi's “The Old Norse Name,” with bloð, “blood” in bloðØx, “blood-ax”; and Hrafna-, “Raven,” and hrafnhauss, “raven-skull.” I don't know if this is possible (I still reel at the thought of non-found ON bynames that would translate to Blackraven or Whitehorse), so I ask help with this element. The client desires a male name and is more interested in the meaning, sound and language/culture of the name. He will not accept Major or Minor Changes to the name.


Beautiful raven heads!


Seki Tora (Sundragon): NEW DEVICE

Sable, a pair of tanto argent hilted gules crossed in saltire and surmounted by a natural tiger's head affronty couped Or marked sable.


The name was registered April 2011.


The tanto (“short sword”) is a fixed-blade Japanese knife.


Thaddeus the Legless (Ered Sul): NEW NAME and DEVICE

Vert, an unfletched arrow inverted argent.


Thaddeus is cited as the name of one of the apostles, found in Mark 3:18 (Bible History Online, http://www.bible-history.com/links.php?cat=45&sub=1935&cat_name=Bible+Names+N-Z&subcat_name=Thaddaeus). In documenting the alternate name Thaddeus Guy for Otnand Vettich, the 9/2008 Outlands LoI notes: Thaddeus -Masculine given name. Found in The Academy of St. Gabriel Report 2306. The name "Thaddeus is found in Footnote 8 of this report, as a common Anglicised form of "Tadhg", from an article on Late 16th Century given names. This would put the name as being in the 1500's.(http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/2306.txt). Legless is not documented. Bynames referring to a leg are found in Reaney and Wilson, 3rd edition, p. 276, s.n. Legg, Legge (Leg 1176, 1185, Legg(e) 1327). Various forms of Lawless from 1350 and 1533 are indicative of an individual who is an outlaw or one uncontrolled by the law (R&W, p. 273 s.n. Lawless); it seems the -less suffix could be used to connote an unfortunate but obvious physical condition of an individual. The client desires a male name and is most interested in the sound of the name.


I'm unclear on the submitted blazon, Vert, argent arrow prope to chief., hence my own blazon. Not being an archer, am I missing a technical term? (The submission appears to be colored with wax crayon. The “line drawing” copy that was just photocopied from one of the colored ones. Please check for conflict nonetheless. Thank you.)



The following submissions appear in the July 2012 Atenveldt Letter of Intent:

Commentary is provided by Alys Mackyntoich (Eastern Crown) [AM], Andreas von Meißen [AvM], Aryanhwy merch Catmael [AmC], Etienne Le Mons d'Anjou [ELM], Gawain of Miskbridge [GM], Gunnvor silfraharr [Gs], Magnus von Lübeck [ML], and Marta [MMM].


Atenveldt, Kingdom of: NEW BADGE: Azure, issuant from base a demi-sun Or and a bordure embattled argent.

This is not a demi-sun. A demi-sun is, by definition, a half-sun. This is more like <...a sun issuant from base> [AvM]

Actually, a demi-sun is "anything less than a full sun". See, e.g., Dolphin's comment, ""Demi-sun" simply means not a full sun, not "half-sun". I believe it was Batonvert who showed evidence of this," on the Shire of Bryngolau's device on the Outlands - 2011-08-31 LoI (registered 11/2011 under the blazon "Per chevron gules and azure, a demi-sun issuant from the line of division and a laurel wreath Or."[AmC] I stand corrected, then. Good to know. [AvM]

I believe we have a possible conflict here: Meri En Heh: (Fieldless) On a canton azure issuant from base a demi-sun Or within a bordure argent. I believe the above would have only one point of difference--that being the line of division of the bordure. [TW]

But we don't protect augmentations on their own; they must be checked for conflict before they are registered, but after they are registered, we do not further protect them against new registrations. [AmC] Aryanhwy: Thank you--I didn't know that! [TW]


Corynne MacLeod (Barony of Atenveldt): NEW DEVICE CHANGE: Per pale sable and Or, a fret counterchanged surmounted by an orle gules.

The orle should be a minimum of half-again as thick. [AvM]

Well, Visually this would be close, but clear when we count DC's vs. Elsbeth des Volkes: Per pale pean and erminois, a fret per pale Or and sable. There is 1 DC for field, and one for the orle. [TW]


Gaia Junia : NEW NAME AND DEVICE: Per chevron sable and argent, two threaded needles argent and a sprig of three holly leaves vert, fructed gules.

<Gaius> appears on p. 78 of "A Study of the Cognomina of Soldiers in the Roman Legions" by Lindley Richard Dean (http://books.google.com/books?id=MF0KAAAAIAAJ) as a praenomen that was also used as a cognomen ( http://books.google.com/books?id=MF0KAAAAIAAJ&q=Gaius#v=snippet&q=Gaius&f=false ). [AM] <Iunius> - which could also be transcribed as <Junius> -- appears as a nomen in "Inscriptions of Roman Tripolitania," by J. M. Reynolds and J. B. Ward-Perkins, enhanced electronic reissue by Gabriel Bodard and Charlotte Roueché (2009). (http://irt.kcl.ac.uk/irt2009/indices/attested/gentilicium/attested_gentilicium-latI.html). <Iunius> also appears on p. 315 of Dean as (apparently) a nomen. On p. 72, Dean also states that <Iunius> was used as a cognomen. [AM] This source also demonstrates the names Imaia Iunia Victoria and Iuniae Perpetuae Rerriuth, which appear to have been women's names. [MMM] <Gaia Junia> (reversing the order of the name elements) would appear to be a reasonable feminine form of a masculine [praenomen] + [nomen]. What I don't know is whether this is a valid form for a female name. Will have to check a couple of precedents on this. [AM]

The per chevron division appears to be a bit... sharp. [ELM] Looks just about perfect to me. [GM] Me too. More chevrons should be drawn like this! [AmC]

Closest I found is Oliver Dogberry (reg. 07/2008 via Caid), "Per chevron throughout sable and argent, two dogs combatant each maintaining a sword argent and a sprig of three blackberries sable barbed and slipped vert," with a DC for changing the type of half the charges, and another for changing the tincture of half. [AmC]

Iamys MacMurray de Morayshire (BoA): NEW BADGE: Gules, on a pile wavy between two crosses formy argent a lion's head erased sable crowned with thorns Or.

Even at full size, I find it hard to recognize the crown of thorns. I think the pile should come down further, and the crosses perhaps higher. [Gs]
I was able to identify the crown of thorns in the full-sized emblazon, but not the thumbnail. I also concur with Orle that the pile should come down a bit further. I don't think it's worth a return, but I would suggest an artist's note. [AvM] These will be mentioned to the client. [MMM]

No conflicts found. However, this is not a properly drawn head erased, which should "(1) have between three and eight jags; (2) have jags that are approximately one-sixth to one-third the total height of the charge being erased; and (3) have jags that are not straight but rather are wavy or curved." [CL 11/2001] [AmC] I see jags,and they curve. I have no issues determining the line to be erased rather than couped. [Gs]


Pietro Francesco da Scalzi (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Per fess gules and sable, a compass rose Or with an annulet argent and charged with a roundel gules.

No conflicts found. Note that <Pietro> and <Francesco> are documented as distinct names, not combined as a compound name -- but both double given names and compound names beginning with <Pie(t)ro> are extremely common in later-period Italy (see http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/database/alphalist.php?canonical=Pietrobon (shows a Zohane Andrea Torexella, and Piedrobon del Avvogaro is a double given name);

http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/database/alphalist.php?canonical=Pierantonio, http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/database/alphalist.php?canonical=Pierdomenego (shows Iohan Domenico, Iohan Lorenzo, Iohanni Andrea as compound given name with separate elements); http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/database/alphalist.php?canonical=Peter+Laurence) (shows Pietro Paul as a compound given name with separate elements). [AmC]

I don't think that having the annulet a different color from the compass star will fly without documentation of that in period, even as a SFPP. (ELM)

If it weren't for the pesky fleur, this could be reblazoned as "an annulet argent and overall a compass star pierced Or", but the fleur makes that impossible. [AmC]

I agree with Vexillum (ELM). The annulet being a different color from the rest of the compass rose essentially makes it a separate charge. I make this something like <Per fess gules and sable, an annulet argent and overall a compass star issuing from its north point a demi-fleur Or charged with a torteau>. [AvM]

After consultation with the client, he's fine with making the Or charge pierced, with the field showing through. This removes the layering effect (or ought to!) This will be blazoned as Per fess gules and sable, an annulet argent surmounted by a compass star pierced and issuing from its north point a demi-fleur Or. The use of a compass star is a Step from Period Practice, although the client did his best to use a compass rose. [MMM]


Ricolda de Aspynwall' (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Sable, on a pale Or a sun gules.

The apostrophe at the end of the byname is almost certainly a scribal abbreviation for the letter 'e'. Since the SCA doesn't register scribal abbreviations, either the apostrophe will be deleted or an 'e' will be added, based on other evidence. <de Aspynwalle> appears at p. 234 of "Calendar of the Patent rolls Preserved in the Public Record Office, Volume 3", dated to 1318 (http://books.google.com/books?id=qA0KAAAAMAAJ). [AM]

Appears clear, but I'm not certain on this one. I feel like I missed something...[ELM]

Under the old rules this would've conflicted with Asa Lee Durant (reg. 05/1996 via the East), "Sable, on a pale Or three compass stars sable," but under SENA there are DCs for tincture and number of the tertiaries. [AmC]


Selina Trastamara de Luna (Brymstone): NEW BADGE: Per bend sinister rayonny sable and gules, two pawprints Or.

The usual SFPP (step from period practice) for pawprints applies here. [AvM]

Blazon as: "Per bend sinister rayonny sable and gules, in bend two pawprints Or." No conflict found. [MvL] I don't think that the pawprints would be in any other placement with the two evenly-divided portions of the field. [MMM]


Sely Bloxam (Tir Ysgithr): NEW ALTERNATE NAME, Luffechild' de Honybourn'

The terminal apostrophes in both the given name and the byname are almost certainly scribal abbreviations for the letter 'e'. Since the SCA does not register scribal abbreviations, either the apostrophe will be deleted or an 'e' will be added at the end of both names, depending on what other evidence is found. [AM] If the terminal apostrophes have to go, the client, upon further consultation, is happy to have terminal -e's take their place. [MMM]


The following submissions are returned by the Atenveldt College of Heralds for further work, July 2012:


Jerusha a'Laon (Twin Moons): NEW BADGE: (Fieldless) Two straight trumpets in saltire argent surmounted by a quill pen Or.

Does the quill pen need to be explicitly blazoned as "palewise"? [AvM] Per the CoA Glossary of terms, the default for a feather is "Palewise, quill point to base (when fesswise, quill point is to dexter)". [AmC]

However, <two straight trumpets in saltire> are listed as a protected item (for heraldic offices) in the glossary of terms. From the October 2010 LoAR:

“Summits, Principality of the. Badge for Summits College of Heralds. (Fieldless) On a chalice azure two trumpets crossed in saltire argent.
This badge is returned for using two straight trumpets crossed in saltire. Precedent says: “The use of two straight trumpets in saltire is reserved to the seals of Principal Heralds, and has been since at least 1983. It is the motif itself that's reserved; changes of tincture, addition of charges, or (as here) inversion of the trumpets, don't affect the reservation of that motif, any more than they affect the reservation of crowns to the armory of royal peers. (John Skinner of Rivenstar, March, 1993, pg. 24)

“This badge, therefore, is not registerable. In addition, since this is specified as being for the Summits College of Heralds, it falls afoul of another precedent: There is a long-standing policy that badges for subsidiary offices which have a higher-level equivalent will not be registered. The subsidiary offices are to use the badge registered for the higher-level office. [Meridies, Kingdom of, June 1994, R-Meridies]

“Since there is a badge for heralds registered to Laurel (Vert, two straight trumpets in saltire, bells in chief, Or), no subsidiary office may register a badge for heralds.
“Lastly, we wish to address a sentence in the Letter of Intent. The LoI says: "Should the Summits ever become a Kingdom, at that time the badge could be made tinctureless and reclassified." An object may not be changed and reclassified. If it is to be made tinctureless, it would be a new submission, subject to the rules of conflict at the time of submission. Note that tinctureless badges are subject to quite a lot more possible conflicts than a fieldless badge, since tincture may no longer be used to resolve any other conflicts.” Therefore, this must be returned for the use of a reserved charge. [AvM]

RETURNED FOR use of a reserved charge.


Muirgein inghean uí AnTáilliúir (Granholme): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Argent, a chevron throughout between the Elder Futhark runes pertho and algiz and a cat passant contourny sable.

Unfortunately, it's not clear that Tangwystyl was correct in asserting that <Muirgein> was used by women.

The 07/2008 LoAR notes: “Submitted as Muirghein inghean Ui Flainn, the submitter requested authenticity for 12th century Gaelic and desired a feminine name. As past precedent indicates, Muirghein is a masculine name: 'Muirghein MacKiernan. Name. The submitter requested authenticity for 16th C Irish, allowed minor changes, and noted that she wanted a female name. No examples have been found of the name Muirghein being used as a feminine given name for real women in period. As such, the submitted name is must be [sic] a masculine name. [LoAR 11/2001]'

“No new evidence was provided for Muirghein being used by women; as such it must be considered a masculine name and so cannot be registered with a feminine byname. The most similar feminine name that was found by the commenters is Muirenn, found in Mari Elspeth nic Brian, "Index of Names in the Irish Annals", between 643 and 979. [Meridies-A]”

Lacking new evidence for <Muirgein> being used by women (and I could find any), it's not registerable with a feminine byname. What's more important to her -- <Muirgein>? Having a feminine name? The language? If she wants to be the tailor herself, rather than the daughter of one, would she be interested in something like <Morgan Taylor>? [AmC]

The first rune is <perthro> with an R. [Gs]

These two may conflict with this submission:
Bjarki Magnússon: "Argent, a chevron between two Maltese crosses and an axe sable."
Sabine of Shernbourne: "Argent, a chevron between three chalices inverted sable." [MvL]

Both are conflicts, with just one DC for the type of secondaries; there is no meaningful comparison of orientation to be made between the groups. [AmC]

RETURNED for clarification of name; and conflict with device

Thank you all for your continuing hard work for the Atenveldt College of Heralds and the people it serves!


Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy

c/o Linda Miku

2527 East 3rd Street

Tucson AZ 85716

brickbat@nexiliscom.com

atensubmissions.nexiliscom.com




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