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Kingdom of Atenveldt Home Page

Kingdom of Atenveldt
Heraldic Submissions Page

(administered by the Brickbat Herald)


Unto Their Royal Majesties Phelan and Amirah; Duchess Elzbieta Rurikovskaia, Aten Principal Herald; the Heralds in the Atenveldt College of Heralds; and to All Whom These Presents Come,

Greetings from Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy, Parhelium Herald!

This is the June 2008 Atenveldt Letter of Presentation. It precedes the external Letter of Intent that will contain the following submissions that are presented here, asking questions of submitters and local heralds who have worked with them; if these questions are not addressed, the submission may be returned by the Atenveldt College of Heralds. I accept online commentary, in addition to questions pertaining to heraldry and consultation. The last day for commentary on the submissions considered for the June 2008 Letter of Intent is 19 June 2008.

Submissions Website: You can send electronic commentary on the most recent internal LoIs through the site, in addition to any questions you might have. Current submission forms (the ONLY forms that can be used) can be found on the site. Please let your local populace know about the site, too:

Kingdom Collegium: This year's Atenveldt Collegium will be held in the Barony of Tir Ysgithr on 7-8 June. There are nearly 100 classes to be offered. I will be teaching a Basic Onomastics (Names) class at 9:30 AM, followed by a Basic Armory class at 10:30 AM on Saturday. If you have clients who need or are interested in these topics, please send them in this direction (there is no class fee or size limit). If you'd like to sit in and be a peanut gallery, you're welcome to do that, too! Heraldic Consultation Tips 'n' Hints will be held on Sunday morning at 9:30 AM; this is a discussion for anyone ("heralds" or just folks with an interest in onomastics and armory) on how to assist follow SCA folks in designing period names and armory: what sources are good (or not), how original ideas can be improved (if necessary), how problems can be solved. This is a round-table format, so if you've had experience with consultation, either individually, or at a household meeting, or at a Consultation, or if you are interested in learning what makes for constructive consultation, please come by! (I might try to wrangle a willing potential client for our use as a "guinea pig"). Following the classes (the afternoons of Saturday and Sunday), there will be an Heraldic Consultation Table, and submissions will be accepted. There's always room for one more at the Table! If you can't find a class to wedge into an hour or two, you are welcome to be on the "herald's side" of the table.

Atenveldt College of Heralds Meeting: there will be an Atenveldt CoH meeting at the Collegium on Saturday afternoon. I think the time is 3:00 PM, and the location is the library (where the Consultation Table will be – convenient!). If you are a warranted herald or a herald in some capacity in the Kingdom, please make an effort to attend.

Recent Registrations and Returns by Laurel: Atenveldt-associated actions found in the January 2008 College of Arms Letter of Acceptance and Return are listed at the end of this report. This covers submissions which appear in the September 2007 Atenveldt Letter of Intent.

Please consider the following submissions for the June 2008 Atenveldt Letter of Intent:

Arabella Eleanor Hamilton (Atenveldt): NEW DEVICE CHANGE

Argent, a lizard tergiant vert between flaunches azure.

The name was registered October 1998.

If this is registered, she wishes to release her currently-held device, Per chevron indented sable and purpure, two natural seahorses Or and a winged sea-unicorn argent winged crined and armed Or.

Ælfwin Ironhair (Granholme Shire): NEW BADGE

Sable, in fess a human skull facing to sinister and a bottle inverted bendwise sinister argent.

The name was registered July 2004.

Ceridwen ferch Gruffudd (Twin Moons): NEW ALTERNATE NAME "Khadijah bint Yusuf al -Andalusiyya"

The client's primary person name was registered April 1989.

The name is Arabic. Khadijah is a feminine given name/'ism and Yusuf is a masculine 'ism. Both are found in "Period Arabic Names and Naming Practices," Da'ud ibn Auda ( ); the patronymic construction method is found in the citation as well. al-Andalusiyya, "from Andalusia," is placed to demonstrate that Yusuf is from the area. "Andalusian Names: Arabs in Spain," Juliana de Luna, suggests that the correct form of the locative/lakab should be al-Andalusi for a man, and that al-Andalusiyya is the form for a woman from that area ( ). The client desires a female name and is most interested in the language/culture of the name (Moorish Spain); she wishes it authentic for language/culture of Moorish Spain.

Frederic Gamage (Twin Moons): NEW NAME

The name is English. Frederic is found as a masculine given name in Reaney and Wilson's A Dictionary of English Surnames, 3rd edition, with this spelling dating to the Domesday Book 1066 (p. 177, s.n. Frederick). Gamage is found in the same source, with this spelling dated to 1275; an earlier spelling, de Gamages, is dated to 1158 ( p. 183, s.n. Gamage). The client desires a male name.

Lucia Simonetti (Twin Moons): NEW NAME

The name is Italian. Lucia is a female given name found in "Fourteenth Century Venetian Personal Names," Arval Benicoeur and Talan Gwynek ( ). The byname is found in the same article as Simoneti. The client would prefer the double -t- in the byname if it could be documented. (While not the most sterling point of documentation, Wikipedia has an entry for the House of Simonetti in Tuscany, the family originating in the 11th C., ). The client desires a female name and is most interested in the sound of the name. She will not accept Major changes to the name.

Uilliam mac Eoin (Sundragon): DEVICE RESUBMISSION from Kingdom, May 2008

Vert, three mullets of six points in bend sinister and a bordure argent.

The original submission, Vert, three mullets of six points in bend sinister argent., was returned for conflict (see below).

The following submissions appear in the May 2008 Atenveldt Letter of Intent:

Commentary this month was received from Aleyn Lyghtefote [AL], Helena de Argentoune [HdA] and Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy [MMM].

Fiona Mag Uidhir (Mons Tonitrus): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Or, on a bend vert between a cow statant gules and a sheaf of arrows inverted sable three annulets Or.

Is the name a technical aural conflict with Fiona MacGregor, registered in 1985? [HdA] I tend to think not – Gregor vs. Guire, two syllables vs. one. [MMM]

Technically, this is not a sheaf because it is minus the wrapping string. [HdA] I'm sending this through as is, since the alternate, a little-more-accurate blazon, is a lot more verbose... [MMM]

Hans Rüpprecht (Tir Ysgithr): DEVICE RESUBMISSION from Kingdom, April 2008: Sable, on a pile cotised argent in pale three grenades bendwise sinister gules. and Sable, on a pile inverted cotised argent in pale three grenades bendwise sinister gules.

After further consultation with the client, he wishes to submit Sable on a pile issuant from sinister chief argent three grenades in bend sinister bendwise sinister gules., to avoid having to use fimbriation in clearing other conflicts.

Steffen von der Grün (Twin Moons): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Or, a gurges vert and on a chief gules three arrows bendwise sinister Or.
traditionally a spiral, not concentric circles.

Commentary on this type of gurges: "Gregory of Glencairn. Name and device. Vert, a cross engrailed argent overall a gurges Or. The model for this armory submission is in Foster's The Dictionary of Heraldry. It depicts the arms of Robert Giffard, from the Dering Roll c. 1275. Foster's blazon is Argent, a cross engrailed sable, over all a gorge azure, and it is drawn much like this submission. The gurges is depicted as concentric annulets, each annulet overlying the "cup" parts of the engrailed cross. The outside annulets are cut off by the sides of the shield so only the corners show. Unfortunately, we were unable to find a period emblazon of these arms. One must be careful about relying too heavily on Foster's redrawn

emblazons. A design found only in Foster's artwork will generally not be considered sufficient documentation to be accepted in the SCA, as noted in the return of Séamus Ó Cuileáin's device in the LoAR of December 1998.

One notably different depiction of the same coat of arms is in Humphery-Smith's Anglo-Norman Armory II, where it is blazoned, Or, a

cross engrailed sable surmounted by five concentric annulets vert. Humphery-Smith's research is usually considered to be more accurate than Foster's. Humphery-Smith emblazons the armory with five concentric annulets surmounting the center of the cross. The outside portions of the cross are not obscured by the annulets, and none of the annulets are cut off by the sides of the shield.

However, there is also some scholarly support for Foster's emblazon. Brault's Early Blazon gives a (modern) illustration of a 'concentric-

annulet' gurges (p.76, fig.11) where the outside annulets are cut off by the sides of the shield. Woodward's A Treatise on Heraldry, p.193, states: Akin to this last bearing is the Gorge or Gurges, or Whirlpool, a spiral line of azure commencing in the fess point of a field of argent,

and occupying the whole shield; it is figured in Plate XIX, fig.6, and was borne, in the reign of HENRY III, as armes parlantes, by the Wiltshire

family of GORGES. In GLOVER'S Roll of Arms, No.188, this bearing takes an unusual form: being, Argent, four concentric annulets azure, the exterior one is cut by the outline of the shield. It is there given thus: 'Rauf de Gorges Roele dArgent & dazur' (sic). In general, it appears that concentric annulets, of which the outermost are cut off by the edges of the shield, are an early form of gurges. Thus, it seems appropriate to give this emblazon the benefit of the doubt, and assume that this is an acceptable period-style combination of a gurges and a cross engrailed." [LoAR 05/2002] [AL]

In the LoAR Cover Letter of July 2005 ( ), there is a lengthy commentary on the depiction of gurges. This is some of the cogent features:

"The gurges appears to be a purely Anglo-Norman heraldic charge, which in its earliest form was a series of concentric annulets. London's "Aspilogia II: Rolls of Arms of Henry III", p.152, describes the original arms of Rauf de Gorges as (in modern blazon) Azure, four concentric annulets argent. It began its heraldic life as an undoubted charge (or set of distinct charges, if you will).

"Bruce Draconarius of Mistholme provided some research on gurges:

"'For a charge that appears so early in the heraldic records, the gurges is remarkably hard to track down. I suspect it's because it was held by so few families, none of whom were prominent.

"'At any rate, I've found two period emblazons of the gurges, both for the canting arms of Rauf (or Rafe) de Gorges. One is found in the Fitzwilliam version of the Heralds' Roll, c.1265, which may be seen in "Anglo-Norman Armory I" by Humphery-Smith, p.72. It's drawn as six concentric azure annulets on an argent field, with the outer two annulets cut off by the edge of the shield. The other is from Charles' Roll, c.1285, which may be seen in "Aspilogia III: the Rolls of Arms of Edward I" by Brault, plate I. It's drawn as four concentric azure annulets on an argent field, with the outer annulet cut off by the edge of the shield.

"'Though these are the only period emblazons of gurges I could find, there are still a few verbal descriptions. The best source is probably "Aspilogia II: Rolls of Arms, Henry III" by London & Tremlett, pp.93, 152. The arms of Gorges are found in Glover's Roll, blazoned in the 1253 text, but tricked in a copy made in 1310 as four concentric annulets, none of which are cut off by the shield edge. Robert Glover, Somerset Herald 1570-88, copied these tricks, rendering the gorges in the spiral form which has been used ever since.'" [HdA] So it seems that this is a more period depiction of gurges after all!

Uilliam mac Eoin (Sundragon): NEW NAME

Zafira al-Zahira (Twin Moons) NEW NAME and DEVICE: Gules estencelé Or, a pair of rabbit ears (or a rabbit's massacre, not sure which is the better term) argent within a bordure lozengy argent and sable.

Discussion on SCAHRLDS listserve concerning the possibility of rabbit/hare's ears being used as a charge resulted in finding an early 20th C. reprint (Banners, Standards and Badges of Howard(?) de Walden) of a period manuscript provided by Aryanhwy merch Catmael that shows a banner belonging to a Ma(y)ster Dymmoke with a semy of hare's ears and swords (the caption reads "Mayster Dymmoke. White, (the cross of St. George); sprinkled with (five) swords in black sheaths; and eight wreaths or and gules, on each a pair of hare's ears. The swords are evidently an allusion to the championship.") ( )

Gawain of Miskbridge commented on the illustration: "I've never actually had my hands on the BWESNBN. I (think what you have in mind are the "cattails" issuant from the head of an angry armless demi-man I found as a crest in the Dover Clip Art "Heraldic Designs" book. I also found the same coat in Siebmacher, plate 101, where the man seems to be wearing a fool's cap with asses' ears. The coats is attributed to von Hesenburg.

"While looking for that I found a coat in plate 178, second from the left on the top row. Its crest is either a pair of rabbit ears or two feathers; I'm not sure which/ The same sort of thing also found a crest in plate 116, as the first coat on the left of the bottom row. Hope that helps. Whoops, I found an achievement on p. 16 of that Cover book, figure 220, which has a crest that's unequivocally a pair of rabbit's (or hare's) ears! I've attached that last one as a .gif file." To which Da'ud ibn Auda comments, "Those are definitely donkey/ass ears, not rabbit ears!"

Helena summarized this neatly for Laurel, and the commentary included the illustration of the Dymmoke banner and the achievement with the long, furry ears. It does seem apparent that "disembodied" ears, particularly rather unique ones that are strongly associated with certain beasts – rabbits, hares, donkeys and asses – were seen in period armory as crests , with charges from period crests allowed as armorial charges. (The client would prefer these blazoned as a rabbit's/hare's ears, as she is a proud "jingle-bunny." Whether the charge on her device should be blazoned as a pair of rabbit's ears, or as a rabbit's massacre, since there's a bit of pelt joining the ears, is open for debate.

The estelencé are apparently inverted (the Pictorial Dictionary shows them as "one and two"). The client is fine with the current depiction on the submission, but if the College of Arms considers this a problem that would prohibit registration, she will provide new forms with the estelencé in the default orientation.

The following submissions are returned for further work by the Atenveldt College of Heralds, May 2008:

Mikel Aurellind (Sundragon): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Azure, a sea-serpent erect ondoyant Or.

Consider Daffyd ap Caradoc, Sable, a wingless, legless hydra, tail nowed Or.; 1 CD for the field + no CD for the nowing of the tail + no CD for posture or orientation + no CD for number of heads = 1 CD, so there is a possible conflict. (NOTES: (1) I believe that snake-like figures are usually erect by default although no default posture is specified by the Default Posture Table.  since a hydra is a type of dragon.  The default dragon posture is sergeant/rampant.  This posture is assumed here. Since the hydra is both legless and wingless, however, it seems to me that it’s orientation does not default to anything in particular and should be specified. This would merit a reblazon for clarity.  (2) Usually no CD is granted for the number of heads.  Since the number of heads is substantial in this case, 1 vs. 9 (assumed), the COA may decide to grant a CD here. (3) The number of heads of a hydra is variable and is supposed to be specified.  This would merit a re-blazon for clarity.) [HdA] I agree with sending this on, based on the need for a clearer blazon in Daffyd's armory, in addition to the other items, but I have to hold both, since the name needs work to make it acceptable for submission. [MMM]

Also consider: Bedivere de Byron: Azure, a serpent entwined around a trident palewise Or. There is 1 CD for the addition of a co-primary charge. Does a snake-like charge like a sea-serpent garner significant difference from a serpent? I would tend to think not. [MMM]

RETURNED for name construction and possible device conflict.

Uilliam mac Eoin (Sundragon): NEW DEVICE: Vert, three mullets of six points in bend sinister argent.

There may be a conflict with Elfrida of Greenwalls (registered January 1973): Vert, three starflowers in pale proper., with 1 CD only if it is determined that starflowers, with seven petals, are not significantly discernible from mullets of six points. The European flower with this common name looks very, very similar to a mullet of six points, however ( ; ), and considering RfS X.4.f. below, there is no significant difference between a mullet-like object with six points vs. one with seven points. Unfortunately, this IS in conflict with Ulrich von Landstuhl: Per bend vert and purpure, in bend sinister three mullets argent. There is 1 CD for the field, but there is no difference between mullets of six points and mullets of five points, as per interpolation of Rules for Submission X.4.f. Number Changes - Significantly changing the number of charges in any group placed directly on the field or overall is one clear difference: One, two, and three are significantly different from any number, four is significantly different from six or more, and five is significantly different from eight or more. Six and higher numbers, including semy of charges, are not significantly different from each other. However, this would make it clear of Alysandir Hunter, (Fieldless) In bend sinister three mullets of four points conjoined argent., with 1 CD for the field and 1 CD for changing the number of points, four being significantly different from six or more. [HdA, MMM]

RETURNED for multiple conflicts.

The following submissions were registered by the S.C.A. College of Arms at its January 2008 meetings:

Aasni Ragnhildsdotter. Name and device. Per chevron purpure and barry wavy Or and azure, two clay pots and a whelk argent.

Argyll MacPherson. Badge. Per saltire sable and azure, in pale two towers argent and in fess two wolves courant Or.

Ascelina MacNeil de Ross. Name and device. Argent, four bear's paw prints in cross sable.

Originally submitted as Ascelina de Ross MacNeil, the name was listed on the LoI as Ascelina MacNeil de Ross. No mention was made of the change or the reason for it. Submissions heralds, please note that such omissions may trigger an administrative return. In this case, correspondence from kingdom revealed that the change was made to make the name registerable (indeed, precedent states that locative bynames in Anglicized Gaelic byname phrases must follow the patronymic), so we will accept the name this time. Please note that if this kingdom fails to mention such changes in future, the item will be administratively returned.

The use of paw prints is a step from period practice.

Aurelia Nomadikη. Name and device. Gules, three scorpions Or.

Submitted as Aurelia Nomadikas, the grammar of the byname is incorrect. The byname is an adjective, and the correct adjectival feminine ending in this case is -{e-} (eta, η). We have changed the name to Aurelia Nomadikη to correct the grammar.

Nice armory. Blazoned on the LoI as Gules, three scorpions gules., a color emblazon was present in OSCAR and most commenters noted that the scorpions are actually Or. Thus, this need not be pended for further conflict checking.

This device does not conflict with Robin the Ruthless in Battel, Gules, a scorpion, within the curve of its tail a heart, and maintaining in each pincer a heart all Or, reblazoned elsewhere on this letter. There is a CD for the number of scorpions and another for removing the secondary heart.

Erin of Atenveldt. Holding name and device. Azure, on a fess argent between a crescent and two scimitars in saltire Or a lotus flower in profile azure.

Please advise the submitted to draw the fess somewhat lower so that the field is more evenly divided and so that the crescent can be drawn larger.

Submitted under the name Amirah al-Zahra, that name was returned on the July 2007 LoAR.

Kazimir Konstantinov. Name and device. Azure, two eagle's heads erased respectant and a goblet Or.

Sara Rebecka Chadburn. Name.

Originally submitted as Sara Rebbeca Chadbourne, the name was changed at kingdom to Sara Rebecka Chadburn; however, no mention of this change was made on the LoI. Submissions heralds, please note that failure to mention changes is grounds for returns. We note that if this happens again with this kingdom, we will be forced to return such items. In this case, correspondence with kingdom revealed that the name was changed to match available documentation and that the changes had been approved by the submitter.

The following submissions were returned by the College of Arms for further work, January 2008:

Elias Loredan. Badge. (Fieldless) A horse rampant argent charged with a compass rose sable within and conjoined to a bordure embattled argent.

This badge was withdrawn by the submitter.

Fabio Ventura. Device change. Quarterly sable and azure, a skull argent.

This device is returned for conflict with the device for Stephan Totenkopf, Gules, a human skull argent pierced gules wearing a winged helmet, in its mouth a broken sword, all argent. There is a CD for changes to the field. The addition or removal of a hat is worth no difference: this is similar to the way we treat crowns. If evidence is found that period heralds considered that addition or removal of a hat to be a cadency step - or to represent different charges altogether - we will reconsider the issue of whether or not there is a CD for such hats. Nor is the fact the hat is, in this case, winged count for difference here: while the addition or removal of wings on a monster is a CD, the same is not true when dealing with a winged helmet as the wings are visually a much smaller proportion of the entire charge.

The submitted device does not conflict with the badge for Valentine Christian Warner, Purpure, a skull argent wearing a fool's cap per pale ermine and Or. There is a CD for changes to the field. In this case, the hat is half of the charge; therefore, there is a second CD for changing half the tincture of the primary charge. Nor does the submitted device conflict with the badge for Feliciano Grimaldi, (Fieldless) A skull argent, wearing a fool's hat with three tassels gules, erminois, and azure. There is a CD for adding the field and another for changing the tincture of half the primary charge.

The submitter has permission to conflict with Achbar ibn Ali, (Fieldless) A skull argent, within the dexter eye socket a rose gules.

Galen McKintoch. Device. Sable, a bend abased Or fimbriated vert, in sinister chief a wing bendwise inverted terminating in a hand sustaining a sword bendwise argent.

This is returned for administrative reasons: the emblazon in OSCAR does not match the emblazon received by Laurel. The vert portion on either side of the bend differed significantly in width between the two emblazons. On resubmission we recommend drawing the wing smaller so that the bend need not be abased. The Rules for Submission section VIII.3 states that "Voiding and fimbriation may only be used with simple geometric charges placed in the center of the design." Prior rulings have disallowed fimbriation of bends abased or enhanced. We leave open the question of whether or not a bend fimbriated can be blazoned as on a bend a bendlet in order to register the same design. If this is resubmitted with a bend abased, the submitter should be prepared to argue why a bend abased charged with a bendlet should be allowed.

If the submitter wishes a wing and sword in this arrangement (more or less), he would do better to forego the wing terminating in a hand. That arrangement almost invariably has the wing in its normal posture, with the sword fesswise reversed above it. Putting that motif bendwise inverted, as in this submission, makes it harder to identify. A better choice would be issuant from a sinister wing a hand sustaining a sword bendwise: a displayed sinister wing, with a hand coming out of the lower end to hold the sword. See the August 2005 Cover Letter for examples and further explanation.

Pelagius Marius Calvus. Name and device. Per chevron inverted gules and azure, a Latin cross formy argent.

This name has the structure of a classic Roman tria nomina, but the name Pelagius is not a documented praenomen. We would drop this element, but the submitter will not allow major changes. For the same reason, we are unable to rearrange the elements to Marius Pelagius Calvus to represent a name of the form nomen + cognomen + agnomen. Therefore, we are forced to return this submission.

The submitter requested an authentic Roman name. Roman names have several possible forms, depending on the period in which they are found. If the submitter is interested in a classic tria nomina, then true praenomen is required. Metron Ariston explains:

While Marius is a well-documented Roman nomen (whose most notable bearer was probably the general and consul who held sway at Rome from around 107 B.C. on) and Calvus a familiar cognomen as in the name of Gaius Licinius Macer Calvus, the friend of Catullus, the Pelagian element is problematic. In origin it is not Latin but Greek and, as far as I can tell, was never used as a praenomen nor a cognomen in ordinary Latin circles. The name Pelagius was borne, probably in the same manner as common geographical or ethnic adjectives used for slaves and foreigners. (Pelagius is the Latin transliteration of the Greek name [Greek] which means "of the sea". It was apparently borne by the British monk who was a contemporary of Augustine, but it is somewhat doubtful that it was his birth name and may have been applied to him because of his origins. In any case, if he really wants a name authentic for "Roman", I would strongly suggest he either use a documented praenomen (Publius leaps to mind as one that would be quite similar in sound)

If the submitter is interested in a Roman name after 250 AD (or so), Loyall has these suggestions:

Academy of Saint Gabriel Report 2206 says:

Early in the third century the praenomen fell out of use in Rome and the traditional tria nomina was supplanted (at least among the nobility) by a new system of nomen, cognomen, and agnomen. By your date of 250 CE most men had names composed of a nomen and one or more cognomina.

Thus, this name could be given a structure authentic for a later Imperial Roman name if we switched the order, making Marius (a nomen) the first element.

This device is returned for conflict with the badge for the Order of Dannebrog (important non-SCA badge), (Fieldless) A cross formy argent fimbriated gules. There is a CD for adding the field but nothing for removing the fimbriation or extending the lower limb of the cross. The submitted device also conflicts with the device for Seth Williamson of Exeter, Lozengy purpure and Or, a cross formy fitchy argent. There is a CD for changes to the field but nothing for the changes to the lower limb of the cross.

Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy

c/o Linda Miku

2527 East 3rd Street

Tucson AZ 85716

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