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Kingdom of Atenveldt Home Page

Kingdom of Atenveldt
Heraldic Submissions Page

(administered by the Brickbat Herald)

1 May 2002, A.S. XXXVII

Kingdom of Atenveldt

Unto Their Royal Majesties Mathias and Elzbieta; Their Royal Highnesses Aaron and Alisandra; Mistress Magdelen Venturosa, Aten Principal Herald; the Heralds in the Atenveldt College of Heralds; and to All Whom These Presents Come,

Greetings of the New Year from Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy, Brickbat Herald!

This is the May 2002 internal Atenveldt Letter of Intent. It contains local submissions, asking questions of submitters and local heralds who have worked with them; if these questions are not addressed, the submission may be returned by the Atenveldt College of Heralds. You are welcome to comment both on submissions being considered for a future LoI and those already in an LoI; mistakes do get made, and I can correct ones, even on those submissions already at the Laurel level. Please have your comments to me on the submissions being considered for the 1June LoI by 25 May. I accept online commentary, in addition to questions pertaining to heraldry:

Name Submissions: Please be aware that a submitter only needs to submit THREE sets of paperwork for a name submission now (one each for the local office, the kingdom office, and the Laurel office). REMEMBER that if the documentation for the name elements is taken from any of the sources mentioned in “Appendix H - Name Books That Do Not Require Photocopies to Laurel” of the Administrative Handbook of the College of Arms of the Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc., you only need to include the page number, title of source (and edition, if applicable), and author on the name submission form. No photocopies are needed for documentation for articles found in, either, just the bibliographical not on the submission form. Appendix H can be found at

Letters of Acceptance and Return: the Atenveldt results of the February 2002 Laurel meetings are included in this report. There are a lot of submissions listed here, and a lot of very interesting commentary.

Submissions Website: You can send electronic commentary on the most recent internal LoIs through the site, in addition to any questions you might have. Current submission forms can be found there. Please let your local populace know about it:

Please consider the following submissions for inclusion in the 1 June 2002 Atenveldt LoI:

Grendel the Red (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME and DEVICE

Argent, an hourglass between in fess two pheons, points outward, gules.

The name is German and English. However, he cites Grendel from Bahlow, which is a family name/surname resource. More commonly spelled Grindel, this is a very old term for a moor or a swamp, and it also refers to the swamp-monster Grendel in Beowulf. In the Hamburg region, more recent bynames include Grindelhof, Grindeltal, and Grindelburg. Grindel appears to be dated to 1215 in Brabant (p. 188, Bahlow), so it seems he could have the name (more likely with the spelling of Grindel than Grendel) but he needs to choose a given name to go with it. The byname is a descriptive epithet.

Zhigmun’ Broghammer (Ered Sul): NEW DEVICE

Azure, ermined Or, a pall argent surmounted by a Caucasian harpy displayed proper, crined and feathered sable.

The name was registered March 2000.

Although an attempt was made to place the dark bits of the monster on the argent pall, the overlapping of the harpy onto the field creates a tincture violation (mostly-black monster on a blue field–the color emblazon forms demonstrated the very real problem of the tincture combination here). Even if this were to be blazoned as an argent harpy, with the feathers considered a very dark grey, this is really sable, not the metallic grey that is an acceptable form of rendering argent (also, if it were a lighter grey, there would be a resulting tincture problem of most of the monster’s wings and tail on the argent pall). Potentially easy “fixes” include changing the sable tincture to Or–there’s going to be a niggle about contrast against the pall, but contrast with the field is the overriding issue (Also, this maintains the harpy as a coprimary, which gives the design more chance at avoiding conflict.); reducing the size of the harpy so that it fits completely upon the pall (since it is mostly sable, the tincture issue is resolved, although it makes the complex charge very small); or fiddling with the tinctures of the field and pall, something like Or ermined azure, a pall azure surmounted by.... These would need to be checked for conflict, as the submitter thinks about the alternatives. Master Roger, can you pass on this information in a timely manner? I’ll also try to contact the submitter.

According to the Pictorial Dictionary, the monster could be alternately blazoned as a frauenadler, a German charge in which the monster has the body of an eagle, and which seems to have this displayed and gardant posture by default. Given the submitter’s German name, I think frauenadler would be a more appropriate blazon.

The following submissions appear in the 1 May 2002 Atenveldt Letter of Intent:

Alex the Scribe (Sundragon): NEW DEVICE

Per chevron gules and sable, in base a dragon passant Or.

Against Percival de Toulouse’s device, Per fess indented azure and gules, a wyvern1passant Or, there is 1 CD for differences in the field and 1 CD for placement of the primary charge on the field. In Rules for Submission X.4.g. Arrangement Changes - Changing the relative positions of charges in any group placed directly on the field or overall is one clear difference, provided that change is not caused by other changes to the design., the movement of the dragon is not limited to certain areas of the field because of potential problems like contrast.

Aleyd von Brandenburg (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME and DEVICE

Argent, a tree eradicated proper, on a bordure engrailed sable, five arrowheads inverted argent.

The name is German. Aleyd dates to 1384 in “Medieval German Given Names from Silesia Women's Names,” Talan Gwynek ( Brandenburg is a port city in eastern Germany; it was founded as a Slavic settle-ment called Brennabor/Brennaburg and conquered (12th C.) by Albert the Bear (

Antonio Francesco Bernini (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME CHANGE from Ian Gilchrist, registered 12/97

The name is Italian. Antonio (Anthony) and Francesco (Francis) are both saint’s names and are found in “Italian Names from Florance, 1427," Ferrante LaVolpe ( Giovanni Lorenzo Bernini (1598-1680) was an Italian artist (p. 144, Webster’s Biographical Dictionary); his father was Pietro Bernini (1562-1629), a noted Florentine sculptor. If this name change is registered, Ian Gilchrist should be released into the public domain.

Iain mac Caradoc (Sundragon): NEW NAME and DEVICE

Per fess azure and sable, in chief three decrescents in fess Or and in base a tollgate argent.

The submitter’s original submission, with a sable field, conflicted with Anne of the White Tower, Sable, a tower argent. Changing the tincture of the field has resolved the conflict.

Michael Geoffrey fitz William (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME and DEVICE

Per chevron gules and lozengy sable and argent, in chief three urchins statant and in base a bear rampant Or.

The name is English. The elements are found in “A Statistical Survey of Given Names in Essex Co., England, 1182-1272,” by Nicolaa de Bracton ( Geoffrey was a widely popular name, William moreso, and Michael coming in a distant third; the Essex records show patronymics formed as Fitz-father’s name used int the area.

Raghnall mac Amlaíb mhic Tuathail (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME and DEVICE

Per pale gules and azure, a winged wolf passant, wings displayed, argent between three Latin crosses Or.

The name is Irish; Raghnall and Amlaíb are both found in Ó Corráin and Maguire, p. 154 and p. 22 (it seems that the earlier form of Raghnall, Ragnall, might be a little more chronologically consistent). Tuathail is found in the Academy of St. Gabriel report 1613 (, with Tuathail meaning “son of Tuathal”. The construction follows the example in “Quick and Easy Gaelic Names,” 3rd Edition, Sharon L. Krossa (, “Raghnall son of Amlaíb son of Tuathal.”

Robert Watson (Granite Mountain): NEW NAME and DEVICE

Sable, a rapier inverted argent, on a chief embattled argent, three acorns slipped and leaved vert.

Robert is a favorite English name since the Conquest, the French form of the OE Hreodbeorht (Withycombe, pp. 254-5). Watson is a Scottish surname, “son of Walter”; Walter Watson is dated to 1494 (Black, p. 803).

The wrong emblazons were sent in the submissions packet; this design resolves the tincture violation issue.

The following submissions were registered by the College of Arms, February 2002:

Anita de Challis. Device. Gules, a schnecke issuant from sinister chief argent and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys azure.

There is a precedent concerning the combination of the schnecke with other charges: [Purpure, a schnecke issuant from sinister chief argent charged with a rose gules, slipped and leaved vert, in dexter chief and in base two fleurs-de-lys argent] We know of no period examples of schneckes with secondary or tertiary charges, we find the use of both in this device to be two steps beyond period practice. We may allow secondary or tertiary charges with a schnecke, but we doubt that the use of either is period practice. (LoAR November 2000)

It is true that schneckes are generally found as single unaccompanied charges, as noted in the precedent. However, it is also true that the same part of the world which engendered armory using schneckes also was known to use charged chiefs as signs of feudal allegiance. Therefore it seems to be at most one step from period practice to add a charged chief to armory using a schnecke which is otherwise alone on the field. The precedent continues to stand in the case from which it arose: a schnecke surrounded by a secondary charge group and itself charged with a tertiary charge group.

Antonio Biagi. Name and device. Or, a dog's head couped purpure and a bordure per saltire gules and purpure.

Biagi is the submitter's legal surname.

Benedict Saint-Jean Eldridge. Name change from Cyngen ap Gwenwynwyn.

This name was submitted as Benedict St. Jean Eldridge and changed at kingdom because we do not register scribal abbreviations. The submitter requested authenticity for 16th–17th C English and allowed minor changes. However, the element Saint-Jean was documented only as French in the LoI. In England, it originated as a locative byname referring to a location in France. Bardsley (p. 718 s.n. St. John) dates Alexander Seynt John to 1530. Bardsley (p. 268 s.n. Eldridge) dates Otwell Eldridge to 1597-8 and gives this name as originally meaning 'son of Alderich'. When examined from the point of view of the submitter's requested time period and language, this name contains two inherited surnames, the first of which originated as a locative byname and the second of which originated as a patronymic byname. This order is unusual and rare. Irvine Gray & J. E. Gethyn-Jones, ed., The Registers of the Church of St. Mary's, Dymock, 1538-1790 list only two examples of names that have this order. Marget Wodd ?al. Hopkyns is dated to 28 Feb 1545/6 on p. 9. A footnote on that page indicates that ?al. Hopkyns was inserted later and that the parchment register reads als. (meaning 'alias'). Blanch Heyet otherwyse Dobyns is dated to 18 Mar 1579/80 on p. 41. This construction indicates two surnames that a person was alternately known by. There hasn't yet been much research done regarding double surnames in 16th C England. But from the evidence that has been found, we can say that in cases where both names were inherited, the two surnames indicate the surnames of the child's parents. In fact, Withycombe (p. xliii) dates Robert Browne Lilly to 1593, noting that his father was John Lilly and his mother's maiden name was Browne. In a number of the instances of double surnames in the Dymock parish registers, this construction was an indication of illegitimacy. But considering the small amount of data we have at this time, it would be premature to presume that this is always the case. Indeed, the notation in Withycombe of Browne being “his mother's maiden name” would indicate that some of the time both parent's surnames were given to children born to married parents. So this name is registerable in the form listed on the LoI. It would be authentic for the submitter's requested 16th C English as Benedict Seynt John Eldridge, Benedict Seynt John alias Eldridge or Benedict Seynt John otherwise Eldridge. However, since the submitter only allows minor changes, we were unable to change the language of Saint-Jean from the submitted French to English, since changing the language of a significant element is a major change.

His previous name, Cyngen ap Gwenwynwyn, is retained as an alternate name.

Bethia Somers. Name and device. Purpure ermined argent, on a pale engrailed argent a rapier sable entwined by a vine vert.

Submitted as Bethia at Someres, the submitter requested authenticity for Scottish/English and allowed any changes. The given name Bethia only began to appear in the late 16th C. By this time, surnames were inherited. The submitted byname, at Someres, is a locative byname dated to 1327 in Reaney & Wilson (p. 434 s.n. Summer). When this name became an inherited surname, the particle was dropped. Bardsley (p. 727 s.n. Summer) dates Peter Somers to 1600. We have changed the byname to this form to meet the submitter's request for authenticity.

Please advise the submitter to be careful that the vine does not overly obscure the rapier.

Branwen of Werchesvorde. Device change. Per pale azure and gules, a raven within an annulet argent.

The raven was originally blazoned with its dexter talon raised. This detail has been ruled unblazonable in the past: “A bird passant, that is to say, with one leg raised, is considered an unblazoned variant of close” (LoAR February 1996, p. 1). Quite a few period birds close are drawn with one leg raised to some degree, especially massive birds such as cocks, hens and swans. Perhaps this is because the bird better fills the space at the bottom of the shield when drawn with one leg raised. Her previous device, Per pale gules and azure, a bend and a bend sinister both humetty argent fretted with a mascle, a bordure Or, is released.

Catlin of Anandyrdale. Name (see PENDS for device).

Submitted as Catlin of Annandale, the submitter requested authenticity for 12th–15th C Scottish and allowed any changes. Johnston (s.n. Annandale) dates the form Anandresdale to 1297. Barbour's poem "The Brus" (early 14th C) contains the spelling Anandyrdale. We have changed her byname to the second form as it is the closer to the submitted form Annandale. We were unable to make the name completely authentic, as we were unable to find evidence that any form of Catlin was used in Scotland in period.

Claus de Saarbrucke. Name and device. Per chevron azure and argent, two escarbuncles argent and a stag's head erased gules.

Submitted as Klaus von Saarbrücken, the submitter requested authenticity for 13th–14th C German and allowed minor changes. Brechenmacher (s.n. Klaus) dates the form Claus to 1294 and 1323, and (s.n. Saarbrücken) dates “de Saarbrucke” to 1323. We modified the name to these forms to meet the submitter's request for authenticity.

Conall of Twin Moons. Holding name and device (see RETURNS for name). Vert, two arrows crossed in saltire surmounted by a double-bitted axe and on a chief indented Or two shamrocks sable.

Submitted under the name Conall O'Maccus.

Deille of Farnham. Badge. Or, on a saltire vert a pawprint Or.

Dietrich Nibelung. Device. Gules, two swords in saltire and on a chief argent three dragon's heads couped gules.

Dietrich von Ravensburg. Name (see RETURNS for device).

Submitted as Dietreich von Ravensburg, the submitter requested authenticity for German and allowed minor changes. No evidence was found that Dietreich is a period variant of Dietrich. Therefore, in order to register this name and to meet the submitter's request for authenticity, we have changed the spelling to Dietrich, which is dated to 1318 in Talan Gwynek's article "Medieval German Given Names From Silesia" (

Henry of Three Needles. Device change. Or, a standing seraph gules.

The submitter's previous device, Per bend sinister sable and argent, a bear sejant erect guardant contourny counterchanged, collared and muzzled sable, chained argent, is retained as a badge. This does not conflict with Jussi of Ylitalo, Or, an angel statant to sinister arm extended sable, head and hand argent. There is a CD for changing the tincture of the angel. Jussi's angel is statant to sinister with its wings addorsed. The standing seraph is in its default affronty position, with its six wings in their default posture (the top two displayed and elevated, the middle two displayed and out to the side, and the bottom two crossed over the body). Thus, there is a CD for changing the posture, just as there would be between a bird displayed and a bird rising to sinister wings addorsed.

Isabelle d'Avallon. Device reblazon. Azure, three natural dolphins naiant in annulo one and two, a chief wavy argent.

Her previous blazon was Azure, three natural dolphins naiant in annulo, a chief wavy argent. This reblazon locates the dolphins explicitly. Since charges in annulo are clockwise by default, it also defines the dolphins' posture.

Jak Graam of Ardmoor. Name.

Submitted as Jack Graeme of Ardmoor, the submitter requested authenticity for 14th C Scotland and allowed any changes. Black (p. 381 s.n. Jack) dates Robert Jack to 1567. This is the earliest form, either as a given name or as a byname, with a -ck spelling listed in this entry. Black (p. 215 s.n. Donaldsone) dates Jak Donaldson to 1453 and (p. 323 s.n. Graham) dates the form Graam to 1341. We have changed the name to these forms to partially meet the submitter's request for authenticity.

Katrín Þorfinssdóttir. Name (see RETURNS for device).

Submitted as Katrín Thorfinnsdottir, the submitter requested authenticity for 9th–11th C Norse and allowed minor changes. Since the accent is being used in Katrín, the thorn and accent should be used in the byname as well.

Leslie of Twin Moons. Holding name and device (see RETURNS for name). Per chevon inverted azure and purpure, a chevron inverted vert fimbriated and in chief a crescent argent.

Submitted under the name Keshvar bint Afsar al-Mah.

Margaret McNeill. Name and device. Or, a lily slipped and leaved gules and on a chief dovetailed purpure three fleurs-de-lys Or.

Submitted as Margaret McNeal, the submitter requested authenticity for 14th C Scottish and allowed any changes. Black (s.n. McNeil) lists McNeal as an undated header form and dates Gilbert McNeill to 1329. Black (p. 321 s.n. Gourton) also dates Margaret de Gouiertoun to temp. David II. The earliest example of a woman's given name used with a Mac- byname/surname that we've found so far is dated to 1406 (Black, p. 471 s.n. MacClumpha, Joneta Makgillumquha), but it is reasonable to assume that this construction may have occurred right at the end of the 14th C, just a few years earlier than the 1406 date. Please advise the submitter to draw the dovetailing more evenly, so that the dovetails down have the same width as the dovetails up.

Micaela Leslie. Name and device. Argent, a pillar sable surmounted by a horse passant contourny and on a chief rayonny purpure a rose slipped and leaved argent.

This name combines an Italian given name with a Scots byname. Mixing Italian and Scots in a name was ruled registerable, though a weirdness, in the LoAR of August 1999 (Laertes McBride). The LoI documented Leslie from Reaney & Wilson (s.n. Leslie), which gives two etymologies for this surname. The etymology containing the spelling Leslie cites only dated examples from Black, which means that Leslie is Scots, not English.

While the pillar and horse combination were universally found to be evocative of a carousel horse, it does not appear to be so obtrusively modern as to warrant return. Please note a very similar design found in the period arms of v. König, Siebmacher f. 146, Azure a pillar Or surmounted by a horse salient argent.

Radigost the Lame. Name and device. Per fess sable and purpure, in chief three escallops and in base eight spears in annulo hafts to center Or.

The byname the Lame is a Lingua Anglica translation of the Russian byname Khromoi, which Wickenden dates to circa 1495. Therefore, a fully Russian form of this name would be Radigost Khromoi.

Raven Mayne. Device. Argent, in pale a goute de sang and a tick on a chief sable a decrescent argent.

Thomas de Lacy. Name and device. Per bend sinister Or and vert, a Lacy knot counterchanged and a label sable.

The Lacy knot depicted in this submission is not quite the standard Lacy Knot. Please advise the submitter to draw the Lacy knot correctly. The standard SCA Lacy knot in the Pictorial Dictionary (which matches the Lacy knot illustration in Brooke-Little's An Heraldic Alphabet, Fox-Davies' Heraldic Badges, and Boutell's Heraldry) has a lozengewise orientation, as with the knot submitted here. However, the Lacy knot in the Pictorial Dictionary has a more complicated center part than the one shown here. A Lacy knot in the aforementioned sources is effectively a large Bowen knot lozengewise fretted with another crosswise which is fretted in the center with an annulet. The Lacy knot in Parker's A Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry omits the annulet and is drawn with an overall delfwise orientation rather than lozengewise. (The second, smaller, Bowen knot also is drawn "tauter" than the one in the standard Lacy knot, which needs some "slack" to allow the central annulet to be fretted with it.) The Lacy knot in this submission is drawn lozengewise (like the standard Lacy knot) but without the annulet (like Parker's non-standard Lacy knot). Labels are throughout by default, so this need not be blazoned.

Thomas Towlewardie. Device reblazon. Quarterly purpure and sable, a tree blasted and couped the trunk transfixed by an arrow fesswise reversed Or.

His previous blazon, Quarterly purpure and sable, a tree blasted the trunk surmounted by an arrow fesswise reversed Or, implied that the arrow was an overall charge. The arrow appears to be more of a maintained charge, and is being reblazoned to reflect this.

Thomas Towlewardie. Badge. (Fieldless) A tree blasted and couped the trunk transfixed by an arrow fesswise reversed Or.

This tree is identical to the one on his registered device, including the lack of detail lines showing whether the arrow surmounts the tree, or vice versa. Since the two charges are the same tincture, this really does not matter for heraldic purposes. The proportions of the device and of the badge show the tree as primary with the arrow in a “maintained” proportion. However, when the device was registered, Laurel said “This does not conflict with Huette Aliza von und zu Ahrens und Mechthildberg (SCA) Vert, a tree blasted throughout Or. There are CDs for the change to the field and the addition of the overall charge.” Therefore, the badge is also clear of Huette's badge by grandfathering. Because the arrow is more of a maintained charge than an overall charge, which is worth a CD for its addition, we have changed the blazon to “transfixed”.

Ysabella Scarlet. Device. Or crescenty gules, a natural panther rampant regardant sable within a bordure gules crescenty Or.

Please advise the submitter to be more careful with the printer inks: this is a rather brownish gules.


The following submissions were returned by the College of Arms for further work, February 2002:

Bertrand de Lacy. Device. Per bend sinister Or and vert, a Lacy knot counterchanged.

Conflict with the protected badge of the Lacy family (important non-SCA armory) (Tinctureless) A Lacy knot. There is one CD for fieldlessness but no difference for tincture of charge versus a tinctureless charge. The Lacy knot depicted in this submission is not quite the standard Lacy knot. Please advise the submitter to draw the Lacy knot correctly. The standard SCA Lacy knot in the Pictorial Dictionary (which matches the Lacy knot illustration in Brooke-Little's An Heraldic Alphabet, Fox-Davies' Heraldic Badges and Boutell's Heraldry) has a lozengewise orientation, as with the knot submitted here. However, the Lacy knot in the Pictorial Dictionary has a more complicated center part than the one shown here. A Lacy knot in the aforementioned sources is effectively a large Bowen knot lozengewise fretted with another crosswise which is fretted in the center with an annulet. The Lacy knot in Parker's A Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry omits the annulet and is drawn with an overall delfwise orientation rather than lozengewise. (The second, smaller, Bowen knot also is drawn "tauter" than the one in the standard Lacy knot, which needs some "slack" to allow the central annulet to be fretted with it.) The Lacy knot in this submission is drawn lozengewise (like the standard Lacy knot) but without the annulet (like Parker's non-standard Lacy knot).

Conall O'Maccus. Name.

The submitter requested authenticity for 11th–12th C Irish and allowed minor changes. RfS III.1.a requires lingual consistency within a name phrase. The submitted O'Maccus combines Maccus, which is found exclusively in Latin citations, and the Anglicized Irish O'. So O'Maccus violates this requirement and is not registerable. Black (p. 484 s.n. Maccus) dates Robert filius Macchus to 1221. Therefore, this name would be authentic in Latin as Conall filius Macchus. Authentic Gaelic forms for his desired time period would be Conall mac Magnusa, Conall ua Magnusa, or Conall h-Ua Magnusa (this last form uses h-Ua, a variant of ua found in early orthographies in the Annals of Ulster and the Annals of Tigernach). The submitter allows minor changes, and the changing of the language of a particle (here O') is usually a minor change (while changing the language of the patronym, here Maccus, is a major change). It was generally felt at the decision meeting that the change from O' to filius so significantly affected the byname in both look and sound that it was a major change. As the submitter does not allow major changes, we are returning this name. His armory has been registered under the holding name Conall of Twin Moons.

Dietrich von Ravensburg. Device. Per fess indented sable and argent, on a chief argent two birds displayed heads to sinister sable, a base vert.

This has been returned for redrawing or redesign. The emblazon cannot be clearly interpreted. This emblazon could also be interpreted as Per fess sable and vert, a fess indented on the upper edge and on a chief argent two birds displayed heads to sinister sable. Note that neither armory using both a chief and a base, nor armory using a fess indented only on the upper edge, are standard period armorial design, so there is no obviously correct interpretation. The birds on the chief were originally blazoned as “ravens”. They are are not identifiable as ravens: they are not in a period posture for ravens, they do not have any of the heraldic identifying characteristics of a raven and they do not clearly resemble naturalistic ravens. They have thus been reblazoned as birds.

Katrín Þorfinssdóttir. Device. Vert, in pale a stag courant inverted and a stag courant to sinister argent.

These stags were originally blazoned as courant in annulo widdershins, legs outward, argent. However, these are not clearly in annulo as they are not embowed enough to make a circle. Such a posture may not be possible for stags with their legs outwards, since in order to truly make a circle, the stags would need to be drawn with extremely arched backs. Such a depiction is likely non-period style. In any case, animals in annulo are expected to have their legs inwards and their identifiability and period style are hampered by this posture.

We have precedent against animals which are almost, but not really, in annulo: [A coney courant and another courant contourny inverted conjoined at the paws argent] The rabbits were originally blazoned as conjoined in annulo. However, the beasts were not drawn in annulo, where the two animals are embowed, but were drawn as courant and courant inverted. By precedent we do not register inverted animals unless they are part of an arrangement in annulo. (LoAR October 2000) This is clear of conflict with Magnus Tindal, Vert, two stags combattant argent. There is one CD for the difference in arrangement between in fess (as with two animals combattant) and in pale. There is also a CD for changing the posture, for the change between rampant/rampant to sinister and courant inverted/courant to sinister.

Keshvar bint Afsar al-Mah. Name.

This name is being returned for a number of problems. Keshvar was documented from a Web site titled "Zoroastrian names" ( The names on this site need to be used with care. On his "Medieval Names Archives" website, Arval Benicoeur includes an explanation of the sources for the "Zoroastrian names" site provided by its author: The Avestan names all occur in the Avesta itself, and thus can be dated to around 1000 BCE or earlier. The Old Persian inscriptions are from around 500–600 BCE. The Parsi names are from Dosabhai Framji Karaka, History of the Parsis I, London 1884. pp. 162–3, and are names in use at that time. The Zoroastrian Irani names are from Farhang-e Behdinan, by Jamshid Sorush Sorushian, Tehran, 1956, and are names used in Kerman and Yazd at that time. You will find many of the names in current usage in the Pahlavi texts as well (ca. 9th ce CE), and in fact date to ancient times, e.g. Av. manush-chithra -> Pahl. Minochehr -> modern menucher. If you consider 9th ce[ntury] CE as medieval, I would suggest looking through the Pahlavi texts for more names. Keshvar is included under the "Parsi names" and "Irani Zoroastrian names" lists on this site. Therefore, Keshvar is only documented to c. 1884 and c. 1956. Lacking documentation that it was used in period, it is not registerable.

al-Jamal summarizes the issues with the rest of the name: Afsar is found, undated, in Ahmed (cited in the LoI). Even the example of Afsar-ud-Din is not dated, and since I do not find the name anywhere else, I can only at this time take it as a hypothetical usage. (When Ahmed has dates, he seems to be pretty reliable. When he doesn't, it's generally indicative of modern usage.) He also gives its origin as Persian, and combines it with the Arabic al-Din. Mah (not al-Mah) is found in Schimmel, also undated, also Persian. Not even Ahmed has it as a name element. It is certainly out of place with the Arabic article al- (the), and even if it were not, Afsar is claiming to be the Moon, not from there. So neither Keshvar nor Afsar are dated to period as given names. The element Mah is not dated to period, and it is documented as Persian. When combined with the Arabic al-, the combination violates RfS III.1.a, which requires linguistic consistency within an element. If documentation were found for Mah as an Arabic element in period, it is not appropriate for use in the laqab al-Mah, since such a byname is in violation of RfS I.3, "No name or armory will be registered which claims for the submitter powers, status, or relationships that do not exist", since a human is not the Moon. All of these issues are reason for return and all would need to be addressed in order to register this name.

Her armory has been registered under the holding name Leslie of Twin Moons.

Marceau de Valmont. Badge. (Fieldless) A fleur-de-lys purpure surmounted by a pair of rapiers crossed in saltire Or.

This submission was withdrawn on the February 2002 Atenveldt LoI.


The following have been pended until the August 2002 Laurel Meeting:


Catlin of Anandyrdale. Device. Argent, on a bend wavy vert between two gouttes azure a cat sejant gardant palewise argent its front paws resting upon an arrow Or.

The word “vert” was missing from the blazon in the LoI, and no timely correction was issued. This must be pended for further research.


I remain,



Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy

c/o Linda Miku

2527 East 3rd Street, Tucson AZ 85716; Atenveldt Submissions Website:



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