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Kingdom of Atenveldt Home Page

Kingdom of Atenveldt
Heraldic Submissions Page

(administered by the Brickbat Herald)


Unto Their Royal Majesties Phelan and Amirah, King and Queen of the Lands of Atenveldt; Master Seamus, Aten Principal Herald; the Heralds in the Atenveldt College of Heralds; and to All Whom These Presents Come,

Greetings from Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy, Brickbat Herald and Parhelium Herald for the Kingdom of Atenveldt!

This is the December 2010 Atenveldt Letter of Presentation. It precedes the external Letter of Intent that will contain the following submissions that are presented here, asking questions of submitters and local heralds who have worked with them; if these questions are not addressed, the submission may be returned by the Atenveldt College of Heralds. Where there any submissions this month, know that I accept online commentary, in addition to questions pertaining to heraldry and consultation. You can send commentary to me privately at or join “Atenveldt Submissions Commentary” at Yahoo! Groups ( ) and post there. (Any commentary is likely be included in the next month's Letter of Presentation so that all may learn from it, and we can see how additional documentation or comments may have influenced a submission. Please don't be shy!)

Please have commentary to me for those submissions under consideration for the December 2010 Atenveldt Letter of Intent by 10 December 2010. Thanks!

Speaking of submissions: I accept direct-to-Kingdom submissions from heraldic clients; this might not be the most favorable route to take, particularly if a group (like a Barony) has a territorial herald, and everyone can stay more in the “submission loop” if a submission is made in this fashion. However, in some cases, this is the only reasonable and timely way for a submission to be made. Local heralds need to send submissions on in a timely manner as well. If you cannot connect with me at an event (very likely) or attend Heraldry Hut, submissions need to be mailed within one month of a local herald receiving them, unless there is a reason for return at the local level. My address: Linda Miku, 2527 E. 3rd Street, Tucson AZ 85716.

Heraldry Hut: Unless there is a great hue and cry for one, there will be no Heraldry Hut in December.

Domesday Reports: Please contact Master Seamus, Aten Principal Herald, for information on preparing and submitting local heralds' Domesday Reports for 2010.

Submissions Website: You can send electronic commentary on the most recent internal LoIs through the site, in addition to any questions you might have. Current submission forms (the ONLY forms that can be used) can be found on the site. Please let your local populace know about the site, too:

College of Arms Actions: Atenveldt registrations and returns made at the August 2010 Laurel meetings (submissions found on the May2010 Atenveldt LoI) are found at the end of this report.

Please consider the following for the December 2010 Atenveldt Letter of Intent:

Eilica Weiss (BoAtenveldt): NEW NAME and DEVICE

Or, a pale chequy argent and azure, overall a heart gules.

The name is German. Eilica is a feminine given name; the abbess Eilica served as the fifth abbess of Quedlingberg Abbey, 1095-1110 (The Uta Codex: Art, Philosophy, and Reform in Eleventh-Century Germany, Adam S. Cohen, ISBN 978-0-271-01959-8, p. 13). There was also another Abbess Eilica, 1180-1215/17, of Herford, Germany (Vita Godefridi comitis Capenbergensis,, Chapter 1. GRAFEN von OLDENBURG 1149-1667. Weiss is a New High German byname, 'white' (Some Early Middle High German Bynames
with Emphasis on Names from the Bavarian Dialect Area,“ Brian M. Scott, )

The following submissions appear in the November 2010 Atenveldt Letter of Intent:

Commentary is provided by Coblaith Muimnech [CM], Helena de Argentoune [HdA],Michael Gerard Curtememoire [MGC] and Marta [MMM].

Berkedei Kökösara (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME

Jocet De La Cour (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Per bend sinister azure and argent, a crab and a dragon's head couped counterchanged.

Sara L. Uckelman's "DRAFT: Names in the 1292 Census of Paris" <> lists "Jocet" as a masculine given name found 4 times in the census. It is categorized as a diminutive of "Joce", which itself appears 21 times as a masculine and once as a feminine given name. The article contains a number of masculine diminutives ending in "-t" and feminine equivalents that differ from them only by the addition of a terminal "e". The pairs include Benoit/Benoite, Gilet/Gilete, Guiot/Guiote, Jehannet/Jehannete, Pariset/Parisete, Perrot/Perrote, Phelipot/Phelipote, and Simonnet/Simonnete. It seems reasonable to extend this pattern to a speculative feminine "Jocete". However, I lack the expertise to say how either "Jocet" or "Jocete" might've sounded in 13th-century Parisian French, so I don't know whether the feminization would alter the sound too much for the submitter's preference.

The article also reports eight instances of "de la Court" as a topographic byname meaning 'of the court'.

All in all, it looks like "Jocet de la Court" would be an excellent late-13th-century masculine French name and "Jocete de la Court" a

very plausible feminine name from the same context. [CM]

And both should be clear of <Josseline de la Cour> (reg. 05/2007 via Lochac); while <Jocet(e)> and <Josseline> are diminutives of the same name, they are not diminutives of each other, and they are significantly different in sound and appearance. [AmC]

The client was contacted, and the gender of the name is not an issue with her, so the given name will remain as Jocet. [MMM]

Cribbing from the OSCAR Archives for Josseline de la Cour's byname, Alisoun MacCoul of Elphane notes: Reaney and Wilson s.n. Delacour, say "A Huguenot name from an aristocratic family De la Cour. The first refugee, a distinguished officer in the French army, settled near Portarlington, his descendents afterwards removing to the county of Cork.” [MMM]

Kendrake MacBain (Tir Ysgithr): DEVICE RESUBMISSION from Kingdom, October 2010: Per bend sinister Or and vert, a wooden shuttle proper and an awl argent, both set bendwise sinister.

Kolos Siklósi (Tir Ysgithr): NEW DEVICE: Per fess azure and vert, a bar embattled argent, in chief a horn argent.

Do we permit single diminutives, like the submittor's bar? I rather thought we didn't! [MGC]

The September, 1985 LoAR says, "In the Fall of 1982, the College of Arms adopted the convention that the diminutive names of ordinaries are used only when there is more than one of the ordinary in question (or when the ordinary is otherwise reduced in importance, as in a 'bar enhanced')," and, "Artistic convention allows a certain amount of latitude in the width of an ordinary; it will tend to be wider when it is charged, and narrower when there is more than one, or when there are other surrounding charges," <>. As far as I know, that remains our practice. So the submission needs to be reblazoned, and the question we need to ask is, "Is the fess in the submitted emblazon too narrow?"
I think it might be. It's pretty darn skinny. The closest period emblazons I saw among those I had handy were the fess at <> and the fess bretessed at <>, each of which is half again as thick, and the fessembattled-counter-embattled at <>, which is about twice as thick. [CM]

The client was contacted, and he's fine with making the bar a true fess embattled. [MMM]

Michièle MacBean (Tir Ysgithr): DEVICE RESUBMISSION from Kingdom, October 2010: Per bend vert and Or, a spoon inverted argent and a wooden drop spindle proper, both set bendwise.

Robert Heinrich (Tir Ysgithr): NEW DEVICE: Quarterly sable and gules, an estoile and on a chief Or three Latin crosses bottony sable.

I wish there were a way of making the crosses larger and more identifiable. From any distance, I suspect they'll look like a row of fancy buttonholes of an indistinct sort. If that means that this is not good period design, that would be a reason for re-design, no? [MGC]

I don't think that the crosses here are any less identifiable when used as tertiary charges as these: Parzival von Hamborg: device associated with this name was registered in December of 2009 (via Caid): Gules, a chalice Or and on a chief argent three Latin crosses moline sable.; Janos Hideg: device associated with this name was registered in September of 2009: Per pale argent and vert, a cross formy quadrate counterchanged and on a chief sable two crosses formy quadrate argent; Uther the Small: device associated with this name was registered in September of 2004 (via Caid): Vert, a bull's head cabossed argent armed Or and on a chief argent three crosses patonce fitchy vert.; Melisent la Ruse: device associated with this name was registered in March of 2005 (via Atlantia): Vert, a fleur-de-lys Or and on a chief argent three crosses bottony sable. This is the curse of any complex charge relegated to the status of a tertiary charge, smaller = less identifiability, and yet they are still registered. [MMM]

Rúadán MacCumhal (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Per chevron gules and sable, a chevron argent charged with three arrows Or one over two.

Academy of Saint Gabriel Report 2926 <> says: . . .we do not recommend the particular clan byname <O Cumhaill, "descendent of Cumhall". We can find no example of <Cumhall> other than the father of Finn in Irish legend. . ..Some clans did claim descent from legendary figures, but that doesn't seem to have happened in this case.

On the other hand, Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada's "16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe" <http://> gives "M'Cooel" and "M'Coole" as Anglicized forms of "Mac Dhubhgaill" <http://> dated to the reign of Elizabeth I or James I, so if "mac Cool" is

what he's looking for. . . [CM]

Despite it being recently pointed out that metal on metal has been done, I believe we don't permit it without documentation of an exceptional pattern, which has not been alleged here. And if it were, the arrows are way too small, even if contrastively colored. [MGC]

Upon further consultation with the client as to his name and device (with all the information provided by Coblaith!), the gentleman wishes to change his name to the more easily documentable Rúadán Mac Dhubhgaill and his device to Per chevron gules and sable, a chevron charged with three broad arrows inverted per pale gules and sable. Dubhghaill is the genitive form of the Early Modern Irish Gaelic masculine name Dubhghall, dated to 1268 in “Index of Names in Irish Annals: Dubgall / Dubhghall,” Mari Elspeth nic Bryan

( ). It is one step from period practice for combining elements from Middle Irish Gaelic and Early Modern Irish Gaelic, but this is a completely documentable Irish Gaelic name. [MMM]

Siobhan Lindsay MacCumhal (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Per pale argent and sable, a mortar and pestle counterchanged.

Where the LoP reads, "Siobhán is a feminine Early Modern English given name. . .," I assume it means, "Siobhán is a feminine Early

Modern Irish Gaelic given name. . .,"? [CM] Oops. Yes. [MMM]

The double surname is a problem. I don't see any way to shoehorn it into a Gaelic name. According to the Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue, s.n. "son (e", "Dauid Lindsay yownngar sovnne to Dauid of Lindsay" appears dated to 1512 in the burgh records of Dunfermline < >. That seems to justify "Lindsay" as an inherited Scots surname for the 16th century. The same source, s.n. "offend", says that "Janet McCome" appears in the records of Elgin, dated to 1586-7 < >. It's not "MacCumhal", but it sounds a lot like it. So if there's evidence of the use of double surnames in Scots in the 16th century, you might be able to justify something like "Siobhan Lindsay McCome", with just one weirdness for inserting the Gaelic given name.

Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada's "Names Found in Anglicized Irish Documents" supports names of the form "[Feminine Given Name] [Wife's Family Name] alias [form of Husband's Family Name]" <http://>. In one of the three examples given in the introduction the form of the husband's family name begins with "M'-", and in one the wife's family name is English in origin (which isn't Scots, but close). The same source lists "Shivane", "Shyvan", "Shyvane", and "Sivan" as Anglicized forms of "Siobhan" recorded in the years 1600 and 1601 and lists one name, "Elenor m'Owen M'Swyny", in which two surnames appear together without an intervening term < >.

As I mentioned in my previous note on "Rúadán MacCumhal", the same author's "16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe" lists "M'Cooel" and "M'Coole" as Anglicized forms of "Mac Dhubhgaill" recorded at the end of the 16th and the beginning of the 17th century < SortedByAnglicizedRoot_C2.shtml >.

So something like "Shyvan Lindsay alias M'Coole" might fly, as an Anglicized Irish name with one Scots element. (I don't think there's

been a ruling, yet, on that combination. But in this particular case it'd be standing where an English name might, English and Scots are

awfully similar, and precedent says combining English and Anglicized Irish is one step from period practice.) You might even argue for "Shyvan Lindsay M'Coole", based on the single two-surname Anglicized Irish woman's name mentioned above, though since "one name does not a pattern make" <http://>, that'd be shakier. [CM]

The client was contacted and provided with the amazing amount of information provided by Coblaith; she is very happy to continue the submission with the less-problematic Siobhan Lindsay. [MMM]

Zhigmun' Czypsser (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME CHANGE from Zhigmun' Broghammer

The following were returned by the Atenveldt College of Heralds for further work, November 2010:

Arianna Hunter (Tir Ysgithr): NEW DEVICE: Agent, a griffin rampant vert within a bordure sable with eight mullets argent.

No name submission accompanied this submission. An armorial submission must by accompanied by a name submission, if the name has not been previously submitted and/or registered.

RETURNED for lack of name submission.

The following submissions have been registered by the SCA College of Arms, August 2010:

Beverly FitzAlan de Stirkelaunde. Name and device. Vert, a pigeon between flaunches argent.

The submitter presented evidence from genealogical websites for Beverly as a feminine given name. Genealogical websites must be used with caution, as the sources for the dates and the spellings are generally unclear. Spellings in particular are often modernized. Therefore, submitters who use genealogical websites must provide evidence that the spellings and dates are correct. Luckily, Edelweiss was able to find evidence for an English boy with the given name Beverly in 1584, allowing the registration of this as a masculine name.

Christmas Albanach. Name and device. Purpure, a gore argent ermined gules.

This name mixes English and Gaelic, which is a step from period practice.

Gawayn Langknyfe. Device. Per bend sinister gules and argent, a bull-headed man vested of a loincloth between in bend sinister two battle-axes counterchanged.

Killian M'Cahall. Badge. Quarterly argent and vert, four dragonflies counterchanged.

Nice badge!

Ségán Ó Catháin. Device. Per bend sinister vert and sable, a sinister wing argent and a bordure argent semy of triquetras inverted sable.

The following submissions have been returned by the College of Arms for further work, August 2010:

Wthyr na Lannyust. Name.

The form of the byname is not supported by the evidence presented by the submitter or that found by commenters. Locative bynames are at best rare in Cornish and its neighbor, Welsh. But when they do occur they only use the placename, without other words or grammatical changes. No evidence was presented nor could any be found of locative bynames using na.

Commenters were not able to find evidence that the spelling Lannyust was used in period, but the Cornish Language Society dates the spelling Lanuste to 1396. We would change the name to Wthyr Lanuste to register it, but the submitter only allows minor changes. Under current precedent, the removal of na is a major change.

Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy

c/o Linda Miku

2527 East 3rd Street

Tucson AZ 85716

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