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Kingdom of Atenveldt Home Page

Kingdom of Atenveldt
Heraldic Submissions Page

(administered by the Brickbat Herald)


Unto Their Royal Majesties Phelan and Marianna; Lord Seamus McDaid, Aten Principal Herald; the Heralds in the Atenveldt College of Heralds; and to All Whom These Presents Come,

Greetings from Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy, Brickbat Herald!

This is the December 2004 internal Atenveldt Letter of Presentation (some present, huh?) It precedes the external LoI that will contain the following submissions that are presented here, asking questions of submitters and local heralds who have worked with them; if these questions are not addressed, the submission may be returned by the Atenveldt College of Heralds. I accept online commentary, in addition to questions pertaining to heraldry: Please have comments or questions to me, on any armorial matter, by 10 January 2004.

Submissions Website: You can send electronic commentary on the most recent internal LoIs through the site, in addition to any questions you might have. Current submission forms (the ONLY forms that can be used) can be found on the site. Please let your local populace know about the site, too:

Heraldry Hut: The next Heraldry Hut is scheduled for Friday, 21 January, beginning at 7:30 PM. If you’re interested in attending, please contact me for more information.

Laurel Letter of Acceptance and Return: The local results of the July 2004 Laurel LoAR (for those submissions appearing in the 17 March 2004 Atenveldt LoI) appear at the end of this report.

Please consider the following submissions for the January 2005 Atenveldt Letter of Intent:

Jane Kynesman of Northamptonshire (Tir Ysgithr): NEW DEVICE

Per pale azure and gules, three Saint Andrew’s crosses argent.

The name was registered July 1997.

Wesley the Silent (Atenveldt): NEW NAME and DEVICE

Per pale azure and sable, in pale the capital letter Q and a roundel Or.

Wesley is the submitter’s legal given name; a copy of his lifetime fishing license, issued by AZ Game and Fish Department attests to this. The byname is a descriptive epithet; silent, referring to a taciturn or reserved nature, appears in English writings in 1565 (COED).

The following submissions appear in the DECEMBER 2004 Atenveldt Letter of Intent:

This month’s commentary is provided by Ástríðr Þórgeirsdóttir [AÞ], Knute Hvitabjörn [KH], Katherine Throckmorton [KT], Aryanhwy merch Catmael [AmC], and Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy [MMM].

Amicia Theudoric la Sauniere (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Per pale embattled vert and argent, in dexter three bees in pale proper and in sinister a columbine azure slipped vert.

Two given names for a woman is unlikely for her period. If she really wants an authentic name, perhaps this can be pended to determine which of the two she'd rather drop. [AmC]

Overall, a very nice name. The name is certainly registerable in its current form, contact between France and England is… quite well documented to say the least. However, since the submitter is concerned with authenticity, the name could be improved, by rendering the la Sauniere into English to match the rest of the name. Reany (cf Salter) has a le Salter dated to 1243 and a le Selter dated to 1296 both of which are (happily) within the submitter’s desired period. Unfourtunately, the sources that I have (all online) don’t show either Amicia or Theudoric in France, although similar sounding names such as Ami do show up. So rendering the first parts of the name into French would do more violence to what is a very pretty name. That said, if the submitter wishes to keep la Sauniere that should not be a major issue. The name is, in my opinion, quite plausible especially given the temporal consistency of the name. [KT] Having spoken with the client, she wishes the French byname to be submitted. [MMM]

I was initially concerned that this appeared marshaled, but according to Rfs XI 3.a, such fields may be used with a complex line of division, as is done in this case. [AÞ]

Anna de Wombwell (Iron Wood Loch): NEW NAME

The name is English. Anna is a feminine given name, dated to 1199, and then in the 1500's; it is found in “Feminine Given Names in

A Dictionary of English Surnames: Ann,” Talan Gwynek ( ). Wombwell is an undated form of a locative byname, seen in 1219 as de Wambewell’ (Reaney and Wilson, 2nd edition, p. 499, s.n. Wombwell). The submitter will not accept major changes to the name; she is most interested in the meaning of the name.

Atenveldt, Kingdom of: BADGE RESUBMISSION for the Kingdom Royal Archer from Laurel, June 2004

Or, a sheaf of arrows inverted sable within a bordure indented azure.

The original submission was returned because there were not enough indentations on the bordure: “Eight indentations on a bordure looks too close to a mullet of eight points. This is especially true on a round shield shape but applies to other shield shapes as well. Thus identifiability is not sufficient, and there is a visual conflict with Paul of Sunriver (Azure, a compass-star Or). Were there half again as many indents, the close resemblance to a mullet would be greatly reduced, eliminating these problems.” The badge has been redrawn following the CoA’s suggestion.

Gavin Featherstone (Mons Tonitrus): NEW NAME

An excellent late period English name! I must also salute his good taste in choosing a Catherine Wheel for a charge! [KT]

Great name... [AmC]

Gemma Ginevra Alighieri (Twin Moons): DEVICE RESUBMISSION from Laurel, June 2004

Per chevron inverted azure and argent, a domino mask and two hearts counterchanged.

The name was registered June 2004.

The orginal submission was returned because the line of division, or at least its bottommost point, is too high; the field division did not come close enough to bisecting the field. Per chevron inverted field divisions must bisect the field, as is the case for period per chevron field divisions, or at least come close. This has been corrected.

Mariana Vivia de Santiago (Atenveldt): NEW DEVICE CHANGE

Argent, a heart gules winged sable within a bordure embattled azure.

The name was registered January 2004.

This will replace the currently registered device, Argent, a heart sable winged gules within a bordure embattled azure.

Nathaniel Urswick (Granholme): DEVICE RESUBMISSION from Laurel, June 2004

Per chevron inverted argent and vert, a brown bear's head erased proper and two lit candles in flat candlesticks argent.

The name was registered June 2004.

The original submission was returned because the line of division, or at least its bottommost point, is too high; as drawn it does not come close enough to bisecting the area of the field. This is in accordance with precedent: As a general rule, chevrons inverted issue from the sides of the shield. One might posit that it could be acceptable for a chevron inverted to issue from the chief corners of the field, because in some displays of armory using chevrons in period on a square form of display (a banner or a square quarter), the chevron issues from the bottom corners of the field. However, the chevrons in those period examples still effectively bisect the field. The chevron inverted in this submission is too high on the field to bisect the field. This is therefore not an acceptable depiction of a chevron inverted. [Erika Bjornsdottir, R-Trimaris, Apr 2003] Likewise, per chevron inverted field divisions must also bisect the field, or at least come close. As drawn, the line of division on this emblazon is too high on the field to bisect the field, and is therefore not an acceptable depiction of a per chevron inverted division. The design has been redrawn.

Philipp von Eisenberg (Mons Tonitrus): CHANGE OF HOLDING NAME, from “Philipp of Mons Tonitrus,” Laurel, June 2004

The submitter’s original name submission, Philipp von Kellerwald, was returned by the CoA because no evidence was submitted and none found that Kellerwald a period placename or that it was constructed according to period German place name or forest name patterns. The name is German. Philipp is dated 1401-1450 in “Late Period German Masculine Given Names from 15th Century Plauen,” Talan Gwynek ( ). Eisenberg Castle in southern Bavaria was built c. 1315, and destroyed in 1525 during the Peasants’ War ( ). The byname has been previously registered to Gregor of Eisenberg, June 2004.

Veronica da Asola (Sundragon): DEVICE RESUBMISSION from Laurel, June 2004

Per bend sinister gules and argent, a bend sinister sable between two quatrefoils counterchanged.

The name was registered February 2004.

The original submission was returned because the flowers/foils were not identifiable as drawn in this submission. “While blazoned as quatrefoils, we have no evidence of quatrefoil petals being drawn with either "seeding" or multiple lobes. In addition, nobody was able to identify this as any particular type of flower.” The necessary reemblazoning has been done, in accordance with the client’s wishes.

Wyllym MacLeod (Tir Ysgithr): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Azure, a walrus sejant gardant and a chief wavy argent.

A fine name! The funky spelling of William is way neat, and also way documentable. Proof (once again!) that you can be weird and period! Although the Wyllym spelling doesn’t appear to show up in Scotland, Cumbria is so close that the combination looks entirely plausible. In any case William is very well documented as a Scots name, and the combination of Scots and English is certainly allowed even if the unusualness of the spelling were to cause people to view the first name as English rather than Scots. Again, a most excellent name! [KT]

This is a lovely name. [AmC]

Consider Raven of Golden Rivers - March of 1986 (via the West): Gules, a seal naiant, its tail reflexed above its head, within a bordure engrailed argent. There is a single CD for type of secondary. I doubt that there is a CD for the posture change. [KH] There is the second necessary CD for difference in the field tincture (gules vs. azure). [MMM]

The following submissions were returned by the Atenveldt CoH for further work, December 2004:

Gavin Featherstone (Mons Tonitrus): NEW DEVICE

Gules, a Catherine wheel argent and a base sable.

No conflicts, but as blazoned, the base is a charge and must be a metal to be placed on the gules field. This is good simple heraldry, I wonder if we need the base at all? I searched 'gules, a wheel' and found 1 entry: Per fess azure and gules, a wheel Or. Which does not conflict due to 1. field division, 2. tincture change of the primary charge. Additionally do we treat all wheels as identical, or are Catherine wheels considered different from wagon wheels, for example? When I checked for conflicts, I assumed the worst case that all wheels are considered the same. [AÞ] All wheels are conflict-checked against each other, so a Catherine wheel would conflict with a plain (cart) wheel. [MMM]

The ship's wheel is apparently not a period charge. Barring documentation to the contrary this must be returned. (Hans Van Hoorn, 3/98 p. 18) Precedents - Jaelle, under Wheel. This isn't a Catherine wheel. It appears closer to the banned ship's wheel. A sable base on a gules field violates RfS VIII.2.b.i. [KH]. Knute is correct; a redrawing here did not make the original banned ship’s wheel into a Catherine wheel, which has significant hooks at the end of each spoke. Additionally, this is a tincture violation with the sable base on the gules field. [MMM]

The following submissions were registered by the S.C.A. College of Arms at its June 2004 meetings:

Ælfwin Ironhair. Name.

Submitted as Aelfwyn Ironhair, no documentation was provided and none found for this spelling of the given name. However, Reaney and Wilson, s.n. Alwin say "Ælfwin Finche is probably identical with Ailwinus, Alwinus Finch 1168, 1173." We have changed the name to Ælfwin to match this documentation.

The submitter noted that Ironhair was intended to mean "someone who curls her hair with a curling or crisping iron." The intended construction is verb+object; a not uncommon form of English nickname. However, this meaning is highly unlikely. While the word Cryspyngeyren (crisping or curling iron) is dated to 1483 in the OED, the verb in this construction is "crisp" or "crisping", not "iron." The OED dates the first instance of the word "iron" as a verb meaning "smooth or press with a heated flat-iron" to 1680. Before that date, the meaning is to cover with iron, or to shackle with irons. The nickname Ironhair is more likely to denote someone with strong hair or iron colored hair.

Her old name, Guilla Ironhare is released.

Atenveldt, Kingdom of. Transfer of order name Order of the Madonnas of Ansteorra to Ansteorra.

Elizabet Alfinnsdottir. Name.

Submitted as Elizabet Alfinnsdottir von Rhine, this name has several problems. First, the byname combines the German von with the English spelling Rhine in violation of RfS III.1.a. A fully German form would be am Reine, dated to 1300 in Socin, Mittelhochdeutsches Namenbuch. However, even with the locative in the fully German form, this name is two steps from period practice. The given name is Swedish and the byname is old Norse; this was ruled a step from period practice in 8/2002. Mixing German and Old Norse was ruled a step from period practice in 3/2004. Therefore, we have dropped the locative in order to register this name, leaving Elizabet Alfinnsdottir.

Gerardus Christopherus de Burgondia. Device. Sable, two swords inverted in saltire surmounted by a bear's head cabossed between two fleurs-de-lys in fess and another in base, all argent and in chief a label dovetailed Or.

The submitter has permission to conflict with Bryon l'Ours d'Argent de Bourgogne: Sable, two swords inverted in saltire surmounted by a bear's head cabossed between two fleurs-de-lys in fess and another in base, all argent. The depiction of the bear's head is also grandfathered to the submitter as it is identical to Bryon's.

Sabatino Galante. Device. Lozengy sable and Or, a pale gules, overall a bat argent.

Please advise the submitter to draw the bat larger.

Tairdelbach mac Conchobair. Device. Azure, four claymores inverted interlaced as a fret interlaced by a claymore inverted and a chief Or.

The submitter has provided a letter of permission to conflict with Finbarr Mathgamain mac Conchobair: Azure, four claymores inverted interlaced as a fret interlaced by a claymore inverted Or.

The following submissions are returned by the College of Arms for further work, July 2004:

Bertrand de Lacy. Household name House de Lacy.

Conflict with the real-world Lacy family. The badge, [Tinctureless] A Lacy knot, registered as important non-SCA arms, is the badge of the Lacys'. Nine of the eighteen registrations of the name de Lacy have a device or badge using this charge. This suggests that, within the SCA, the mundane family name is closely enough associated with the registered charge that the name should also be protected.

Dobin Tir-y-Cwningen. Name.

Tir-y-Cwningen is a post-period form of this name. The submitted documentation shows several examples of Tir-y- names, but the earliest of them dates to 1666. The documentation dates the form Tireconynger to 1472. To change the locative to this form would be a major change which the submitter will not accept. Therefore, the name must be returned.

Jens Sveinsson. Device. Argent, a merman proper crined sable maintaining in his sinister hand a torch sable enflamed azure and on a bordure engrailed vert three escallops argent.

This item was originally pended on the January 2004 LoAR. The device is being returned for lack of documentation for the specific form of the merman. al-Jamal cites the following precedent, which is relevant in part: While we register brown beasts proper if the animal is found naturally brown, such as a brown rabbit, or a brown hound, this is not a beast, but rather a monster, because of the wings and halo. Since monsters do not have proper coloration, they cannot be brown. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR May 1998, p. 28). While it is true that merfolk do have a defined proper coloration, that is because their torsos must be torsos of human figures seen in heraldry. For a merman to have a brown-skinned torso, that torso must be of a recognized heraldic human figure whose skin is typically brown. As drawn, this does not match any of the known variants, nor was documentation provided for this style of human figure.

Mary Kate O'Malley. Device. Per saltire arrondy vert and sable, a lozenge argent charged with a wolf's head cabossed sable.

This has a complex low-contrast line division overlain by a nonskinny charge. It therefore violates RfS VIII.3 which says in part: "For instance, a complex line of partition could be difficult to recognize between two parts of the field that do not have good contrast if most of the line is also covered by charges." As al-Jamal notes, "arrondy is considered a complex line of division. As a consequence, it may not be used between two low contrast tinctures with a overlying charge, precisely for the reason shown in the emblazon - the line of division becomes very difficult to identify when it is obscured by an overlying charge." Brachet notes: "Whether or not there is a CD for quarterly arrondi vs quarterly in field-only armory, it is quite clear that the arrondi part simply does not show up in low contrast when the center part of it is obscured by a lozenge." The central part of the field illuminates the lion's share of the difference between plain and arrondy partitions.

Obscuring that intersection with a nonskinny charge makes it very difficult to distinguish between plain and arrondy, blurring the difference between two lines of division that have a CD between them.


Best wishes for a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year! Thanks to all for your

continued hard work and dedication to the Atenveldt College of Heralds!

Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy

c/o Linda Miku

2527 East 3rd Street, Tucson AZ 85716

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