Brickbat's - November 2017 LoP Page

Unto Their Royal Majesties Áilgheanán and Amber; Baroness Genevieve de Lironcourt, Aten Principal Herald; Heralds in the Atenveldt College of Heralds; and to All Whom These Presents Come,

Greetings from Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy, Brickbat Herald and Parhelium Herald for the Kingdom of Atenveldt!

This is the November 2017 Atenveldt Letter of Presentation. Please have commentary to me by 20 November 2017.

Heraldry Hut: The October 2017 Heraldry Hut was held 20 October. The November meeting may be canceled because of Kingdom Arts and Sciences.

The following submissions appear in the October 2017 Atenveldt Letter of Intent:

Argent, an Oriental dragon in annulo purpure maintaining a roundel sable, a base nebuly purpure.
The name was registered July 2012. If registered, the client will maintain her currently-registered device, Per fess vert and argent, three demi-swords inverted issuant from the line of division and a dragon dormant wings elevated and addorsed counterchanged., as a badge.

This is clear of the armory for Ailis de la Marche: Argent, a dragon in annulo vorant of its tail purpure maintaining in its feet a cauldron, an orle sable., with 1 DC for the orle vs. base, and 1 DC for the tincture change of those secondary charges.

Argent, in cross four hearts points to center sable and in saltire four daggers points to center gules.

The previous device change submission, Gules, on a plate a sword gules surmounted by a dragon's head erased sable., was returned January 2017 for multiple reasons; this is a complete redesign. There is a step from period practice for the use of charges in annulo not in their default palewise orientation. I am unsure whether this would apply to all the charges in this submission, as they are co-primaries (I have a bad feeling that there may be two SFPPs, a reason for return). Nonetheless, thank you! to the Heraldic Consultation table at Great Western War for assisting an Atenveldt client.
If registered, the client will maintain her currently-registered device, Per saltire argent and gules, in chief two chevronels couped and in base a pair of scissors sable., as a badge.

Argent, a bull's head cabossed and in chief a double-bitted axe, a bordure embattled azure.

The name was registered June 2015.
This submission seem to have slipped between the floorboards, having been taken at the Estella War; very sorry for the delay!

Per pale sable and gules, a sword between two wolf's heads erased respectant Or.
The name was registered January 2013. This badge was registered January 2014. When exchanged, the client's currently-held device, Per pale sable and gules, a dragon's head cabossed and in base a Thor's hammer Or., is to be released.

Varinn inn Spaki (TY): NEW BADGE
Argent, within the horns of a decrescent gules in pale a wolf's head cabossed and two roses sable, slipped and leaved vert, stems crossed in saltire.

Per fess vert and sable, in pale a badger rampant maintaining a spear and a sun argent.

The name is Old Norse. Matheus is found in The Viking Answer Lady's website (http://vikinganswerlady.com/ONMensNames.shtml#m), a form of the Christian given name Matteus, Matthew; it is found in Geirr Bassi, p. 13, s.n. Matheus. The byname means “storm badger.” Elements are found in the English-Old Norse Dictionary, compiled by Ross G. Arthur (In parentheses Publications, Linguistics Series, Cambridge, Ontario 2002), with veðr, “storm,” and English Old Norse Dictionary online with þǫx, “badger” (https://glosbe.com/en/non/badger).

The client desires a male name and is most interested in the meaning and language/culture of the name (Viking/ON). He will not accept Major changes to the name.

The following submissions appear in the September 2017 Atenveldt Letter of Intent:

Commentary was provided by Basil Dragonstrike, Christian Jorgensen af Hilsonger, Coblaith Muimnech, Etienne Le Mons, ffride wlffsdotter, Iago ab Adam, Kolosvari Arpadne Julia, Kryss Kostarev, Magnus von Lübeck, Maridonna Benvenuti, and Michael Gerard Curtememoire.

Abigail de Westminster and Lachlann Dougal Graeme (Mons Tonitrus): NEW BADGE: (Fieldless) Three chevronels couped and braced counterermine.

Cu Cathan Ultaig (BoA): NEW DEVICE: Gules, a bend sinister bevilled between a wolf's head couped contourny and an axe reversed maintained by a hand couped argent.

Iago ab Adam commented that more info about the hand is needed in the blazon: Gules, a bend sinister bevilled between a wolf's head couped contourny and an axe reversed maintained by a sinister hand fesswise reversed argent., and added “ I'm a bit concerned that this might be slot machine, with three types of charge (wolf's head, axe, hand) in the secondary charge group. I couldn't find a relevant precedent (post the Aug 2015 maintained/sustained rule change) about whether held charges count as a different secondary charge group from the secondary charge holding them.”
Magnus von Lübeck found a recent acceptance example with a primary charge and a maintained charge for Rosa Linda degli Uccelli, Gules, on an owl affronty maintaining in its talons a rose slipped and leaved argent, a heart gules and in chief a cross bottony and a fleur-de-lys Or. [January 2016 LoAR, A-East]., so that “This device does not violate SENA A3D2a, "slot machine" armory, which means a design having more than two types of charge in a single group.”

There is now a question as to a primary charge's maintained charge counting as a secondary charge group vs. a secondary charge itself maintaining a charge.

Finola Elizabeth Sutherland (Mons Tonitrus): NEW DEVICE CHANGE: Purpure, on a pile inverted between two natural dolphins haurient repectant argent a fleur-de-lys sable.

The name was registered November 2011.
If registered, the client's current device, Purpure, on a pile inverted between two natural dolphins haurient repectant argent a mullet sable., is to be retained as a badge.

Jeffroie Laurence Du Bosc (Barony of Atenveldt): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Quarterly gules and purpure, a cross counter-compony sable and argent, in chief two lions couchant addorsed regardant Or.

I cannot find this spelling of the given name. However, it appears in a number of variant spellings (Geffray 1444, Jeffray 1444, Geffry 1416, Jeffrey 1463, Goscelinus 1269, Joscelinus 1162-3, all taken from the Middle English Dictionary). The MED also demonstrates Geffrei 1475. While none of these show an -o- in the name, ffride wlffsdotter notes that Google cites multiple instances of the statement "Jeffroie DuBois, a Norman Knight who accompanied William the Conqueror (Duke of Normandy)," which may explain why the submitter has requested authenticity for "11th C. Norman."
Maria de Venetia (Tir Ysgithr): NEW DEVICE CHANGE: Argent, a butterfly azure, a bordure azure semy of heart argent.

Mark the Just (Twin Moons): NEW ALTERNATE NAME, Just Mark, and NEW BADGE: Sable, a hanging balance and a chief embattled argent.

Rebeka Orosz (Twin Moons): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Quarterly vert and azure, a cross nebuly argent surmounted by a camal rampant Or.

Rebeka is a female given name This spelling was documented by Kolosvari Arpadne Julia in Hungary (in Latin) in 1272 (Fehértói, Árpád-kori személynévtár, s.n. Rebeka), seen in the LoAR for Rebeka Sidó, March 2014. This cams from Női neveink az Árpád-korban Az Árpád-kori személynévtár (1000-1301) alapján by Jurkó Edina (http://mnytud.arts.unideb.hu/szakdolgozat/1667/jurko_e_1667.pdf) has p. 29 of the PDF
Rebeka, 1272.

However, Kolosvari Arpadne Julia: “Dunaföldvár does not have church records going back to 1556. (The Ottomans used the stones of the ruined abbey to build themselves a tower there in the mid-1500s.) The date was mis-indexed; it's actually 1856 (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9398-VNTJ-C?i=475).
“Orosz 'Russian, Ruthenian' is a very common surname in Hungary. Kázmér dates the header spelling Orosz to 1514, 1522, and 1588, and the most common period spelling Oroz as early as 1332.
“There's my ethnic bynames article (https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/julia/EthnicBynames.html), which mentions Oroz as the most common spelling and the earliest date of 1332 for the name; that plus a construction argument based on other mentioned most-common-in-period spellings, such as Cherkesz and Szerb, should be enough to get Orosz (especially given that I can then confirm its period-ness in commentary).”
ffride wlffsdotter: Szamota István, 1906. Magyar oklevél-szótár
(https://archive.org/details/magyaroklevlsz00szamuoft)
col. 714 sn. Orosz
Blasius Oroz 1426
Jacobi dicti Oroz 1449
Ladislai Oroz 1453
Petro Oroz 1470
Orosz András, Orosz Miklós 1602
Julia addtionally says: “I just noticed that the submitter requests authenticity. Given the 1272 date for Rebeka, even 1332 for Oroz is a bit of a stretch (fifty years: two generations), but it would unquestionably be better than the late-period Orosz. I do wonder whether Rebeka shows up in the Anjou-age name list by Mariann Slíz -- she has been adding her material to the DMNES, but as far as I can tell she's only gotten up to M. I would not be totally surprised by a post-Reformation (but pre-17c.) Rebeka, but I have not found such a citation. If I did, then Orosz would be a good spelling to go with it.”
Rhys Makhdoom (BoA): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Sable, a horned and fange death's head, on a chief argent,three horned and fanged death's heads gules.
There was a great deal of discussion on this name Makhdoom. It was used by the descendants of Pirs, Quraysh Tribe, politicians and landlords in the in Pakistani provinces of Punjab and Sindh (http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Makhdoom). There is the likelihood that Makhdoom was a title given to, and not a name personally associated with an individual. There are some instances of Makhdoom associated with people (including a man in the petroleum business, a physician from Illinois, and a Pakistani model), but they are all 20^th C./post-period persons. If this element in period was used as a title alone, it violates SENA PN.4. B. 1. Use of Elements that Appear to Be Titles: Names may not contain an element or group of elements that create the appearance of a claim to have a specific protected rank or title that the submitter does not possess within the Society, even if that name element or elements are attested. A number of bynames based on documented Middle English ones were suggested by ffride wlffsdotter, in the event that this submission is returned.
There was somewhat less commentary on the device, other than how to accurately describe the charges. Whether the combination of it and the literal pronunciation of the name, or the perceived excessive religious reference and religious offense have to be decided by Wreath.
Sean Gleny (TM): NEW NAME CHANGE, from Seán an Gleanna
The original name submission was registered with this commentary: “Submitted as Seán Glenny, the name conflicts with one of the submitter's legal use names, [redacted]. There is insufficient difference in the sound of these two names for the submission to be registerable.
“However, the name can be made registerable by addressing his request for a name authentic for 13th C Ireland. While we cannot make this name authentic for the 13th century (because we do not have any examples of the name Seán before the early 14th century), we can change the name to fully Irish Gaelic form, which will change the sound sufficiently to provide enough difference from the legal use name to make the name registerable.
The byname Glenny was documented as the submitter's legal surname. The Gaelic form of Glenny is an Gleanna, which is dated to 1592 in Mari Elspeth nic Brian "Index of Names in Irish Annals". The same article also has 16th C examples of Seán. We have changed the name to Seán an Gleanna, an authentic 16th C Irish Gaelic name, in order to register it and to partially fulfill the submitter's authenticity request.”
The Administrative Handbook.III.A.10. Name Used by the Submitter Outside the Society - “No name will be registered to a submitter if it is identical to a name used by the submitter for purposes of identification outside of a Society context. This includes legal names, common use names, trademarks, and other items registered with mundane authorities that serve to identify an individual or group. This restriction applies to Society branches as well as individuals. Thus, a branch cannot use the name of a significant location (a town or county, for example) within its borders. This restriction is intended to help preserve a distinction between a submitter's identity within the Society and the submitter's identity outside of the Society.”
Under SENA, Sean doesn't conflict with John, with differences in initial consonant and vowel (the initial commentary and ruling in 2008 wasn't made under SENA).
Solveig frá Rauðá (Ered Sul): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Per fess gules and argent semy of shears, a fess wavy sable and in chief a fish Or.
The name is Old Norse. Sólveig is a feminine name found in "Viking Names found in Landnámabók," Aryanhwy merch Catmael, http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/landnamabok.html. Rauðá is a river in Southern Iceland, in Árnessýsla Co. It is referenced in the Landnámabók. The word frá is the preposition, “from,” associated with place-names such as used for period locales like rivers and farms. Prepositions like this are moderately common in locative bynames, but to indicate place of origin rather than place of resedence: both it and ór can be translated “from” in this context; frá is a cognate with the English from.

The following submissions were registered by the SCA College of Arms, July 2017:

Dennis of Tir Ysgithr. Holding name and device (see RETURNS for name). Sable, on a pile azure fimbriated a scimitar inverted, a bordure argent.
Submitted under the name Valeas Proietto di Venezia.

Fiórleif eldr {o,}rn. Device. Argent, a phoenix gules, a bordure sable semy of pheons argent.

Galen Peter Gilmore. Device. Per bend purpure and argent, a wyvern argent and three domestic cats herissony contourny guardant sable.

Godfrey Jordain. Name (see RETURNS for device).
The submitter requested authenticity for an unspecified time, place or language. This name as documented is authentic for 16th century England.

Hannah Milligan. Device. Per bend vert and purpure, on a bend Or a rose sable, overall two natural dolphins in annulo argent.
Having charges in annulo not in their usual upright orientation is a step from period practice.

Jaku'an Kakujo. Device change (see RETURNS for name change). Azure, on a hexagon within a hexagon voided argent a hemp leaf vert.
This depiction of a hemp leaf is registered to the submitter. There is a step from period practice for the use of hexagons.
The submitter's previous device, Per pale sable and vert, within a torii a lion dormant argent, is released.

Johnathan Crusadene Whitewolf the Younger. Alternate name Eber Hauer and badge. Per bend Or and argent, a bend raguly gules between a double-headed eagle sable and an elephant's tusk gules. The submitter requested authenticity for an unspecified time, place or language. This name appears to be authentic for Prussia (Germany) circa 1600.

Leo frun of Tir Ysgithr. Name and badge. Gules, a chimera statant within a bordure Or.
Tir Ysgithr is the registered name of an SCA branch.

Leolin Blackwell. Name and device. Sable, a chevron gules ermined and fimbriated between two natural leopards combattant Or spotted sable and a demi-sun issuant from base Or.
Artist's note: Please draw the ermine spots larger and the fimbriation thicker.

Muiredach mac Robartaig. Name and device. Chevronelly inverted azure and Or, on a chief-pale sable between two doves respectant gules, a double-headed axe Or.
Nice Gaelic name for the 8th-12th centuries!

Olive of Granholme. Holding name and device (see RETURNS for name). Quarterly purpure and sable, on a cross rayonnant Or between in chief two owls respectant argent, an increscent moon azure. Submitted under the name Olive Long Anne Prosper.

Orabilis Douw. Name and device. Per pale dovetailed argent and purpure, a wolf rampant contourny sable and a winged unicorn segreant argent, on a chief rayonny vert three thistles argent, blossomed purpure.

Orabilis Douw. Badge. Argent, a wolf's head erased contourny sable and a unicorn's head erased purpure armed gules, a point pointed counter-ermine.

Sibyl Brethnagh. Name (see RETURNS for device).
Submitted as Sibyl Breathnach, the submitter preferred the 13th century Anglicized form of the byname, mentioned in commentary by Coblaith Muimnech. Therefore, we have changed the name to Sibyl Brethnagh to match the submitter's preference.

Þórbjorn Siggeirsson. Name.
Submitted as Þórbjørn Siggeirson, two minor changes were required for registration of this name. First, although there are many transliterations of the given name, none of them include ø. With the submitter's permission, we have changed the given name to Þórbjorn to use one of the standard transliterations. Second, the byname does not use the correct genitive (possessive) form of the father's name. We have corrected by the byname to Siggeirssson for registration.

Vincent Blackwell. Name and device. Sable, on a pale gules fimbriated between in chief two wolves rampant addorsed a sword inverted argent.
Nice 16th century English name!

The following submissions were returned by the College of Arms for further work, July 2017:

Áilgheanán mac Síthigh. Device. Or, a "hound" passant regardant vert and a chief sable.
This device is returned for redraw. The hound is depicted in a highly stylized Celtic manner, in violation of SENA A2C1, which requires that elements of armory be drawn "in a period armorial style."
The depiction of the hound is also in violation of SENA A2C2, which requires that "Elements must be drawn to be identifiable." Commenters had difficulty identifying the charge as a hound, with some identifying it instead as a cat.

Amber Bikkadóttir. Device. Per chevron inverted vert semy of cat's pawprints argent and sable, a domestic cat couchant contourny paly sable and Or and a tree eradicated argent.
This device is returned for redraw. The field division is too high for per chevron inverted, and the paly division makes the domestic cat difficult to identify. There is a step from period practice for use of pawprints.

Ceallach Colquhoun. Household name Red Dragon Keep of Sundragon.
This household name must be returned because the pattern Place Name/Heraldic Charge + Keep + of Place Name was not documented and does not follow any attested pattern for names used for groups of people. We cannot drop the phrase of Sundragon, as the name Red Dragon Keep conflicts with the registered household names Company of the Red Dragon and House of the Red Dragons.
The submitter has two options for resubmission. First, although a change in designator does not clear a conflict between non-personal names, it does make it possible to register a name with permission to conflict. If the submitter obtains permission to conflict from the owners of Company of the Red Dragon and House of the Red Dragons, then Red Dragon Keep would be registerable.
Second, in the following forms, the name would fit attested patterns for household names: Red Dragon House of [place name] or Red Dragon Tavern/Inn of [place name].
If the submitter wishes to use of Sundragon as part of a resubmission, he should be prepared to address concerns raised by commenters that this construction was an improper claim to be an official arm of the Barony.

Godfrey Jordain. Device. Vert, a chevron throughout gules fimbriated and charged with two chevronels Or.
This device is returned for conflict with Eiríkr skreyja, Vert, a chevron gules fimbriated argent. There's one DC, for adding the tertiary charges to the chevron, but nothing for changing the tincture of the fimbriation.

Olive Long Anne Prosper. Name.
PN2E of SENA states: No name will be registered that either in whole or in part is obtrusively modern. Something is said to be obtrusively modern when it makes a modern joke or reference that destroys medieval ambience and drags the average person mentally back to the present day. Obtrusiveness can be either in the written form or when spoken. A period name that has a modern referent will not generally be considered obtrusively modern. Only extreme examples will be returned.
This name must be returned because commentary uniformly identified it as an obtrusively modern Star Trek reference, clearly evoking the phrase "live long and prosper" and dragging listeners back to the modern (or future) era. The fact that this name uses an unusual English construction (double given names and double surnames) to accomplish its joke takes it beyond a mere modern referent to the sort of extreme example that requires return.
Her device is registered under the holding name Olive of Granholme.

Roland of Blaye. Name.
This name must be returned because it presumes on the significant historical figure Count Roland, nephew of Charlemagne and eponymous hero of the 12th century Chanson de Roland, one of the most famous pieces of medieval literature.
Roland was called seigneur de Blaye (overlord of Blaye) in period sources. For example, Annales & croniques de France: depuis la destruction de Troye iusques au temps du roy Louis onzieme, published in 1553 (https://books.google.com/books?id=iy9hAAAAcAAJ), refers to Roland several times as "Comte du Mans" (Count of Mans) and "Seigneur de Blaye." Blaye continues to be the modern name of the place. Thus, Roland of Blaye is a form of the famous Roland's name and the present submission must be returned as presumptuous.

Sibyl Brethnagh. Device. Gules, a corgi dog rampant contourny Or maintaining a dagger inverted argent, a bordure embattled Or.
This device is returned for redraw. The depiction of the primary charge does not match the provided documentation for the corgi, with the ears, tail, and muzzle noticeably differently from the gray-period image. No commenters were able to recognize the charge as a corgi.

Valeas Proietto di Venezia. Name.
This name must be returned due to lack of evidence for Valeas as a name element. The documents cited in the Letter of Intent show the name as Valens, not Valeas. All of the instances of valeas found by commenters were for a Latin verb form, not a name (or even a noun). Heralds at the Pelican decision meeting were able to document both Valens and Valerius as given names compatible with the remainder of the name. However, the submitter allows no changes. Therefore, the name must be returned.
His device is registered under the holding name Dennis of Tir Ysgithr.

Yagi Tenji Yoshitatsu Kakujo. Name change from Jaku'an Kakujo.
Unfortunately, this name must be returned because it is not correctly constructed and the submitter does not allow any changes. The submitter appears to be intending to use the attested Japanese pattern of Family Name + Yobina + Nanori + Imina. However, Solveig Keystone advises Tenji cannot be used as a yobina because it is an "era name" referring to a time period; "era names" did not come into use as yobinas until after the SCA's period.
The submitter may be interested to know that Tenji can be documented as an imina or a "name in religion." Thus, Yagi + yobina + Yoshitatsu Tenji would be registerable. Kakujo is also an imina. Thus, Yagi + yobina + Yoshitatsu Kakujo is also registerable. However, there is no evidence of Japanese names using two iminas.

Kingdom of Atenveldt
Heraldic Submissions Page

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Kingdom of Atenveldt Heraldic Submissions Page

(administered by the Brickbat Herald)

Kingdom of Atenveldt
Heraldic Submissions Page