Brickbat's - October 2017 LoP Page

Unto Their Royal Majesties Áilgheanán and Amber; Baroness Genevieve de Lironcourt, Aten Principal Herald; Heralds in the Atenveldt College of Heralds; and to All Whom These Presents Come,

Greetings from Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy, Brickbat Herald and Parhelium Herald for the Kingdom of Atenveldt!

This is the October 2017 Atenveldt Letter of Presentation. Please have commentary to me by 20 October 2017.

Heraldry Hut: The October 2017 Heraldry Hut is tentatively scheduled for Friday, 20 October, 7:30 PM.

The following are returned by the Atenveldt CoH for further work, Ocotber 2017:

Saoirse Kyara Fae Ultaig (BoA): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Or, a fess sable, overall two candles argent, enflamed gules.

The submission forms REALLY need to be filled out in pen, and made complete as possible. Date submitted and consulting herald information are very valuable. Documentation is a given.

Although it is claimed that the client's legal name is Saoirse Kyara Fae Mullan, no documentation was provided for the name.

Charges must have good contrast with the field. Although there is fine contrast with the sable fess on the Or field, because the candles are overall, they need good contrast as well, and argent candles on an Or field do not.
RETURNED for name documentation and contrast issues on the device.

Sitareh (BoA): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Argent, a mermaid purpure maintaining a sun Or and a decrescent azure, a double tressure sable.

No documentation was provided for the name, other than it is meant to mean “star” (no language given).

This also violates PN.2.B. Name Phrase Requirements: A registerable personal name must be made up of at least two name phrases: a given name and at least one byname (which may appear to be a second given name). While it is easy to document individuals who are identified only with a single given name, we do not allow the registration of single element personal names. Individuals may use those names, but may not register them.

The device seems to be free of conflict; however, it must be accompanied by a name submission.

The following submissions appear in the September 2017 Atenveldt Letter of Intent:

Commentary was provided by Basil Dragonstrike, Christian Jorgensen af Hilsonger, Coblaith Muimnech, Etienne Le Mons, ffride wlffsdotter, Iago ab Adam, Kolosvari Arpadne Julia, Kryss Kostarev, Magnus von Lübeck, Maridonna Benvenuti, and Michael Gerard Curtememoire.

Abigail de Westminster and Lachlann Dougal Graeme (Mons Tonitrus): NEW BADGE: (Fieldless) Three chevronels couped and braced counterermine.

Cu Cathan Ultaig (BoA): NEW DEVICE: Gules, a bend sinister bevilled between a wolf's head couped contourny and an axe reversed maintained by a hand couped argent.

Iago ab Adam commented that more info about the hand is needed in the blazon: Gules, a bend sinister bevilled between a wolf's head couped contourny and an axe reversed maintained by a sinister hand fesswise reversed argent., and added “ I'm a bit concerned that this might be slot machine, with three types of charge (wolf's head, axe, hand) in the secondary charge group. I couldn't find a relevant precedent (post the Aug 2015 maintained/sustained rule change) about whether held charges count as a different secondary charge group from the secondary charge holding them.”
Magnus von Lübeck found a recent acceptance example with a primary charge and a maintained charge for Rosa Linda degli Uccelli, Gules, on an owl affronty maintaining in its talons a rose slipped and leaved argent, a heart gules and in chief a cross bottony and a fleur-de-lys Or. [January 2016 LoAR, A-East]., so that “This device does not violate SENA A3D2a, "slot machine" armory, which means a design having more than two types of charge in a single group.”

There is now a question as to a primary charge's maintained charge counting as a secondary charge group vs. a secondary charge itself maintaining a charge.

Finola Elizabeth Sutherland (Mons Tonitrus): NEW DEVICE CHANGE: Purpure, on a pile inverted between two natural dolphins haurient repectant argent a fleur-de-lys sable.

The name was registered November 2011.
If registered, the client's current device, Purpure, on a pile inverted between two natural dolphins haurient repectant argent a mullet sable., is to be retained as a badge.

Jeffroie Laurence Du Bosc (Barony of Atenveldt): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Quarterly gules and purpure, a cross counter-compony sable and argent, in chief two lions couchant addorsed regardant Or.

I cannot find this spelling of the given name. However, it appears in a number of variant spellings (Geffray 1444, Jeffray 1444, Geffry 1416, Jeffrey 1463, Goscelinus 1269, Joscelinus 1162-3, all taken from the Middle English Dictionary). The MED also demonstrates Geffrei 1475. While none of these show an -o- in the name, ffride wlffsdotter notes that Google cites multiple instances of the statement "Jeffroie DuBois, a Norman Knight who accompanied William the Conqueror (Duke of Normandy)," which may explain why the submitter has requested authenticity for "11th C. Norman."
Maria de Venetia (Tir Ysgithr): NEW DEVICE CHANGE: Argent, a butterfly azure, a bordure azure semy of heart argent.

Mark the Just (Twin Moons): NEW ALTERNATE NAME, Just Mark, and NEW BADGE: Sable, a hanging balance and a chief embattled argent.

Rebeka Orosz (Twin Moons): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Quarterly vert and azure, a cross nebuly argent surmounted by a camal rampant Or.

Rebeka is a female given name This spelling was documented by Kolosvari Arpadne Julia in Hungary (in Latin) in 1272 (Fehértói, Árpád-kori személynévtár, s.n. Rebeka), seen in the LoAR for Rebeka Sidó, March 2014. This cams from Női neveink az Árpád-korban Az Árpád-kori személynévtár (1000-1301) alapján by Jurkó Edina (http://mnytud.arts.unideb.hu/szakdolgozat/1667/jurko_e_1667.pdf) has p. 29 of the PDF
Rebeka, 1272.

However, Kolosvari Arpadne Julia: “Dunaföldvár does not have church records going back to 1556. (The Ottomans used the stones of the ruined abbey to build themselves a tower there in the mid-1500s.) The date was mis-indexed; it's actually 1856 (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9398-VNTJ-C?i=475).
“Orosz 'Russian, Ruthenian' is a very common surname in Hungary. Kázmér dates the header spelling Orosz to 1514, 1522, and 1588, and the most common period spelling Oroz as early as 1332.
“There's my ethnic bynames article (https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/julia/EthnicBynames.html), which mentions Oroz as the most common spelling and the earliest date of 1332 for the name; that plus a construction argument based on other mentioned most-common-in-period spellings, such as Cherkesz and Szerb, should be enough to get Orosz (especially given that I can then confirm its period-ness in commentary).”
ffride wlffsdotter: Szamota István, 1906. Magyar oklevél-szótár
(https://archive.org/details/magyaroklevlsz00szamuoft)
col. 714 sn. Orosz
Blasius Oroz 1426
Jacobi dicti Oroz 1449
Ladislai Oroz 1453
Petro Oroz 1470
Orosz András, Orosz Miklós 1602
Julia addtionally says: “I just noticed that the submitter requests authenticity. Given the 1272 date for Rebeka, even 1332 for Oroz is a bit of a stretch (fifty years: two generations), but it would unquestionably be better than the late-period Orosz. I do wonder whether Rebeka shows up in the Anjou-age name list by Mariann Slíz -- she has been adding her material to the DMNES, but as far as I can tell she's only gotten up to M. I would not be totally surprised by a post-Reformation (but pre-17c.) Rebeka, but I have not found such a citation. If I did, then Orosz would be a good spelling to go with it.”
Rhys Makhdoom (BoA): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Sable, a horned and fange death's head, on a chief argent,three horned and fanged death's heads gules.
There was a great deal of discussion on this name Makhdoom. It was used by the descendants of Pirs, Quraysh Tribe, politicians and landlords in the in Pakistani provinces of Punjab and Sindh (http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Makhdoom). There is the likelihood that Makhdoom was a title given to, and not a name personally associated with an individual. There are some instances of Makhdoom associated with people (including a man in the petroleum business, a physician from Illinois, and a Pakistani model), but they are all 20^th C./post-period persons. If this element in period was used as a title alone, it violates SENA PN.4. B. 1. Use of Elements that Appear to Be Titles: Names may not contain an element or group of elements that create the appearance of a claim to have a specific protected rank or title that the submitter does not possess within the Society, even if that name element or elements are attested. A number of bynames based on documented Middle English ones were suggested by ffride wlffsdotter, in the event that this submission is returned.
There was somewhat less commentary on the device, other than how to accurately describe the charges. Whether the combination of it and the literal pronunciation of the name, or the perceived excessive religious reference and religious offense have to be decided by Wreath.
Sean Gleny (TM): NEW NAME CHANGE, from Seán an Gleanna
The original name submission was registered with this commentary: “Submitted as Seán Glenny, the name conflicts with one of the submitter's legal use names, [redacted]. There is insufficient difference in the sound of these two names for the submission to be registerable.
“However, the name can be made registerable by addressing his request for a name authentic for 13th C Ireland. While we cannot make this name authentic for the 13th century (because we do not have any examples of the name Seán before the early 14th century), we can change the name to fully Irish Gaelic form, which will change the sound sufficiently to provide enough difference from the legal use name to make the name registerable.
The byname Glenny was documented as the submitter's legal surname. The Gaelic form of Glenny is an Gleanna, which is dated to 1592 in Mari Elspeth nic Brian "Index of Names in Irish Annals". The same article also has 16th C examples of Seán. We have changed the name to Seán an Gleanna, an authentic 16th C Irish Gaelic name, in order to register it and to partially fulfill the submitter's authenticity request.”
The Administrative Handbook.III.A.10. Name Used by the Submitter Outside the Society - “No name will be registered to a submitter if it is identical to a name used by the submitter for purposes of identification outside of a Society context. This includes legal names, common use names, trademarks, and other items registered with mundane authorities that serve to identify an individual or group. This restriction applies to Society branches as well as individuals. Thus, a branch cannot use the name of a significant location (a town or county, for example) within its borders. This restriction is intended to help preserve a distinction between a submitter's identity within the Society and the submitter's identity outside of the Society.”
Under SENA, Sean doesn't conflict with John, with differences in initial consonant and vowel (the initial commentary and ruling in 2008 wasn't made under SENA).
Solveig frá Rauðá (Ered Sul): NEW NAME and DEVICE: Per fess gules and argent semy of shears, a fess wavy sable and in chief a fish Or.
The name is Old Norse. Sólveig is a feminine name found in "Viking Names found in Landnámabók," Aryanhwy merch Catmael, http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/landnamabok.html. Rauðá is a river in Southern Iceland, in Árnessýsla Co. It is referenced in the Landnámabók. The word frá is the preposition, “from,” associated with place-names such as used for period locales like rivers and farms. Prepositions like this are moderately common in locative bynames, but to indicate place of origin rather than place of resedence: both it and ór can be translated “from” in this context; frá is a cognate with the English from.

Kingdom of Atenveldt
Heraldic Submissions Page

(administered by the Brickbat Herald)

Kingdom of Atenveldt Heraldic Submissions Page

(administered by the Brickbat Herald)

Kingdom of Atenveldt
Heraldic Submissions Page